Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

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Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Aitrus »

I hadn't seen this website before or knew that there was an established petition process. I figured I'd give it a try. This one probably has a snowball's chance in hell of making the signature count, but if I don't try I don't have a right to complain, right?

In short, this petition asks that a choice to opt out of Social Security be enacted, and any funds already paid in to be transferred to a retirement account of the person's choice. I ask this because the Supreme Court ruled that Social Security isn't a contract, benefits aren't guaranteed, and Congress can change payouts any time it deems fit to do so.

If you agree with my idea, please sign and spread the word.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petit ... id-program
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Toadystyle
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Toadystyle »

Social Security was enacted as a security net for the public that could not or did not save enough to get them through retirement. If people opted out of Social Security that does'nt solve an issue as people would opt out for the money now, would'nt save and we are right back where we started, supporting the elderly in old age. Social Security doesnt work if all workers don't contribute to it.

The issue isnt the Social Security program itself. It is in essence a great program for recipients as it is a safe investment with a great rate of return. The issue is that for the last 30 years every administration has taken IOUs out of the fund and none of replenished it. Additionaly the Disability program has gone insane and is a drain on the fund.

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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Aitrus »

I agree, Social Security itself is the problem, but we all know that it isn't going away until and unless it goes bankrupt. Which may take who knows how long. In the meantime, I'm simply asking to be excused from the table, I don't like what the nanny made for dinner.
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ArrieS
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by ArrieS »

Aitrus wrote: I ask this because the Supreme Court ruled that Social Security isn't a contract, benefits aren't guaranteed, and Congress can change payouts any time it deems fit to do so.


I like the idea but reviewing the case and why the SCOTUS ruled in this way is because Section 1104 of the 1935 Act, entitled "RESERVATION OF POWER," specifically said: "The right to alter, amend, or repeal any provision of this Act is hereby reserved to the Congress."

However, rights/powers can be lost if an individual or in this case an organization acted in such a way as that right was inherently waved by their actions.

To speak specifically to this point is how Congress changed our retirement benefits. Under CSRS government workers did not participate in Social Security. But under FERS they started to pay into Social Security and the Government started presenting Social Security as part of their retirement plan.

From the FERS portion on OPM,
"FERS is a retirement plan that provides benefits from three different sources: a Basic Benefit Plan, Social Security and the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP). "

Before for Flemming v. Nestor decision in which SCOTUS ruled Social Security wasn't a contract, it wasn't part of a promised defined benefits program.

However, I would like to argue that because the Government included it in our defined benefits plan for retirement Congress specifically addresses it as part of our retirement program has made it a contract, at least in respect for Federal workers under FERS, by its conduct in how it presents the FERS system and laws covering retirement.
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JDD4J4J
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by JDD4J4J »

In my opinion, that idea sounds like something out of a horror movie. Social Security is the solution not the problem. We need to expand social security, while finding ways to safe guard the funds for its intended purposes. Just like we need to reduce government contracts and increase the government workforce.

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Sad Al
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Sad Al »

Some people don't like to eat their vegetables. Call your mom and dad (or grandparents) and ask them if it's okay to reduce their SS payments by the amount you pay in. If they say, "Sure, go ahead!" I'll sign your petition.

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ArrieS
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by ArrieS »

I wonder if peoples opinion of Social Security would change once they fully understand it. Social Security is insurance, it's not a retirement program but an insurance program.

Insurance is only sustainable if the insurance company wins more than it loses. That means Social Security is only sustainable if the Government wins more than the people win. Do we want a program that makes the Government bet against its own people?
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Kato
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Kato »

It's been going on for so long it's become the norm for how many generations now?
Veteran - Someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America" for any amount, up to and including their life

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Aitrus
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Aitrus »

JDD, What problem, exactly, is Social Security solving? The dreadful need for people to plan for their own futures, to be responsible for themselves, and to care for their loved ones? Or are those duties best solved by letting the Government take care of those who can't (or won't) take care of themselves?

Sad Al, it's mom and dad who need to eat their veggies. Why should I be responsible for their bad decisions? Should my kids and grandkids be responsible for me? I know somebody who is smart enough and mobile enough to play chess on a regular basis and can walk just fine, yet he's on SS disability for life at the age of twenty-something. I have no idea why, but I'm paying his bills, and so are you. It's all kinds of immoral for one person to be held responsible for the decisions / laziness of another.

Arrie, Social Security isn't insurance, even though "OASDI" has the word "insurance" in it. Insurance is contractual in nature. The Supreme Court ruled in Flemming v Nestor that SS isn't a contract and that participants aren't guaranteed to receive a benefit. SS is nothing more than a program designed to enable and reward bad behavior, be a political tool to be manipulated for votes, to be a measure of power for the Federal government, and to be a pot of money for the government to raid whenever it feels it needs to.

Kato, just because it's the norm doesn't make it right. Slavery was around for how long? How long were the Colonies under the rule of England before we cut ties?

If there's people who want participate in the program, by all means, go ahead. But for those of us who don't want to participate, make it optional. That's all I'm saying - make it optional.
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ArrieS
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by ArrieS »

Aitrus wrote:Arrie, Social Security isn't insurance, even though "OASDI" has the word "insurance" in it. Insurance is contractual in nature. The Supreme Court ruled in Flemming v Nestor that SS isn't a contract and that participants aren't guaranteed to receive a benefit.


Insurance is contractual in nature, but don't forget the US Government has special contractual powers reserved only for the State. It has the power to break contracts at will if deemed in the best interest of the government. So yes, it can be insurance, therefore contractual, and therefore because of the special powers of a state can be freely broken.

But the point of my post was not the contractual nature but the fact that for insurance to be self-sustaining it must win more than those insured win. Therefore the Government must purposely make a program that can only be sustained if the American people lose.
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Aitrus »

Ah, I see your take on it. I agree, it can be viewed as insurance in that way.

What boggles my mind is how some can advocate so strongly for something that's so obviously a bad deal. It's like the government is saying

"By law, you must take out a $100k loan from the US Government, make payments and pay interest on it throughout your working life, and what you must purchase with that $100k is worth only $90k. We reserve the right to make that thing worth $70k or $50k or whatever we wish at any time, or we can take it completely away if we decide to do so. Oh, and you see that guy over there? The one who smoked, drank and ate himself to a state of bad health and thus isn't able to work at age 42? Yeah, it's totally not his fault, so he's getting his $90k item for free (or half price), and you and your kids are on the hook for it. Ditto for the Baby Boomers down the street that didn't pay a dime into retirement: not their fault they didn't save and invest. They paid in their $50k plus interest when they were working, are getting their $90k item, and you and your kids need to pay for the gap so they don't get their benefits cut (god forbid they get cut - we might lose votes!). But rest assured, when you're old and grey it'll be there for you (we think). Now, since we've been managing the program so admirably, we think you should vote for us come next November. Whaddya say?"
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Aitrus »

Sorry everyone - I'm in a cynical mood today and a conversation with my dad really pissed me off yesterday. Don't take it personally.
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wulfent
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by wulfent »

I don't know Aitrus, sounds frightfully accurate to me.

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ArrieS
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by ArrieS »

Aitrus wrote:Why should I be responsible for their bad decisions?... I know somebody who is smart enough and mobile enough to play chess on a regular basis and can walk just fine, yet he's on SS disability for life at the age of twenty-something.


So because you found one person milking the system, than the whole system should be brought down?

You're right, I know of veterans who lie to get extra benefits. No benefits for veterans, why should we pay for them, down with the VA!

You're forgetting one very important thing. The laws of economics dictate you are fundamentally wrong. We live in a world of finite resources. There will always be losers, scarcity dictates that. Sure, some people are cheating the system, but you do ignore that the system itself is fundamental built so there will be losers. What you call bad decisions are required for you to have any success at all.

What happens if people work and save for their retirement? Less spending, less spending equals economic downturn, economic downturn leads to less jobs, less jobs lead to less employment, less employment leads to lower savings, but people keep saving which leads to less spending, ETC...

You are fundamentally ignoring that our system demands losers. So ultimately your complaint is you succeed and don't want any responsibility for your success that required failure.

Aitrus wrote:Why should I be responsible for their bad decisions? Should my kids and grandkids be responsible for me?


You're right, or why should you be responsible for your Children?
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Re: Petition for Opting Out of Social Security

Post by Aitrus »

Arries,

The whole system should be brought down? It's coming down under its own bloat. No need for me to do anything to help it along, but I would like to get clear of the disaster if I can. Hence the opt-out.

I'm not ignoring that the system demands losers. I'm fully aware that in order for a wolf to live a rabbit must die, that Nature will burn sick trees to make way for new ones. I'm not ignorant of how the world works. But what socialism does is ignore those fundamentals and punish those who succeed at life (wolves) in order to reward those that don't (rabbits) out of some misguided sense of "fairness". Some just don't think that any rabbits should have to die. But the world isn't fair, nor should it be. SS is a perfect example of how government gets this simple basic fact of the world completely wrong.

I just don't like being forced to take care of poor unfortunates out of some notion that we're more "civilized" by doing so. We're more "civilized" when we take care of them voluntarily, not out of mandate.

Yes, my children are indeed my responsibility. I am not theirs. If I do not plan and prepare for the days when I will need extra help, then I have failed in my responsibilities to them as a parent and an example.
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