I appreciate all the mostly civil discourse. Most everyone is afraid to talk about the hard stuff because many start to get trollish (or medieval in real life).
Everyone wants the country to come together; yet, no one wants to have civil discussions in order to make that happen. Many times, when it becomes clear that someone's argument is on faulty ground, the insults start flying.
Another thing I've noticed is that we don't seem to try to understand why others believe as they do. If we did, we may find that we actually agree.
We don't really ask the important questions; we do though sometimes just bark out our beliefs.
That said,
dougellen1 wrote:Obama had the lowest 8 year average of federal pay raises ever.
Assuming that's true:
You've stated a dry fact. But, how to you feel about that fact? What ... is your opinion of that fact.
Do you believe that probably, most Presidents in their first term give raises essentially, to try to win more votes from federal employees?
Did you look into whether federal raises tend to coincide with second-term election years? If so, what did you find?
If true, do you agree with that practice? Is it fair to private sector workers?
How did federal pay compare to the private sector during that time frame?
Last edited by userque on Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scorpio70 wrote:A budget is a wish list, you can be outrageous as you like. When Senator Warren announced the cost of "Medicare for All," Nancy Pelosi immediately said that it can't happen, no money for it. At least they are working on getting one going.....
There is money for it. It is called slash the needlessly huge military budget. We waste entirely too much money on the military.
What?
Reduce the military budget?
The advances other militaries are making means just the opposite. If you take your foot off the throttle, you’ll fall behind. That’s a national security issue at that point. I disagree with the statement of reducing the military budget. The pay increases should always continue (that’s me being greedy) but they have yet to really take care of the vets once we leave service. That portion is not funded well.
SLASH the needlessly huge military budget <<< must be coming from someone who's never donned a military uniform or studied history. The biggest military expenditure is PERSONNEL. Personnel who generally make well less than their civilian-equivalent counterparts for what may be the prime of their working lives should they remain in uniform for 20-30 years. Putting it bluntly, YOUR military cannot function without PERSONNEL. Personnel cost money to train, feed, outfit with kit, deploy, do the King's Business and then come home broken, battered, missing arms and legs or they come home in coffins (so that YOU don't have to).
But, slash the needlessly huge military budget because we don't need planes, ships, tanks, submarines, weapons and PERSONNEL to run them. We don't need to protect our borders; look out for national interests abroad; protect our allies; or project international dominance so that our WIDE OPEN BORDERS are not overrun by the China's, North Korean's and Iran's of the world. NAH - that will never happen <<< So say the uniformed naysayers. For anyone over the age of 19, it already has happened <<< 9/11 will never happen either, right?!?!
There are enough chemical and biological weapons circulating the world to wipe out a major U.S. city in a matter of weeks - who do you think is guarding your city water supply - the answer is NO ONE. Who do you think is guarding your power grid - the answer is NO ONE. What do you think will happen to our infrastructure if it ever happens again? If I were you, I wouldn't dare think for a minute that it can't, or WON'T, happen again. Something for you to think about while standing in the security line at the airport, you know, so you have something to do besides complain about the "inconvenience" and the wait.
Military advances worldwide REQUIRE we maintain, if not exceed, the pace of the rest of the world. Russia now has essentially indefensible HYPERSONIC weapons; North Korea will never stop trying to develop nuclear weapons; Iran will never stop harboring and facilitating terrorism, and China alone would probably give us a run for our money if they unleashed. If you think for half a second we can handle Russia, North Korea, Iran and China at the same time, you are severely misinformed. As much as I bleed Red, White and Blue, and as much as I believe in our military - I don't think we can handle that kind of heat.
But - slash that military budget. I'm not denying the military wastes some money; however, that's because of the government procurement system. The military is budgeted just as any other entity is budgeted. The two branches I served in STRUGGLED to get enough money to support the myriad of missions they are tasked to conduct. That's been since I joined in 1986, and I continue to serve the military to this day as a civilian.
As a 30-year active duty member of the Marine's and Coast Guard I can tell you the Marine Corps has been, and probably still is, "beg, borrow and steal," since the year the Corps was created (1775). The Coast Guard is still driving ships that are 40-50 YEARS OLD and RIFE with mechanical and structural problems. Trust me when I tell you, you DO NOT want to be on a 45-year old Coast Guard Cutter in the Bering Sea when it's -25 degrees and you're in 50+ foot seas getting your a$$ handed to you while the ship is flooding from both ends because it's so old and decrepit. We do that ALL DAY EVERY DAY so that you can go to Red Lobster and eat King Crab legs while complaining about how much it costs. Safeguarding the Alaskan Crab Fleet is a small percentage of what the Coast Guard does, and they are doing with life-vital equipment that is probably older than you are. It's downright pathetic!! But, until you've had your a$$ in the grass and seen it firsthand, that's the crap most American's never hear about. Our military just keeps on keeping on, doing what needs to be done and you don't hear much complaining about it from the troops. They signed up for it; they DO THEIR JOB AND THEN SOME!!
Find someplace else, other then military, to SLASH the budget. Start with the pork-belly social welfare programs, the hand-outs to everyone and their brother, and the continued move to make everything "free." Everything is NOT free >>> at one end or the other of any deal SOMEONE has to pay for it!
Last edited by Navig8tor on Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
userque wrote:I appreciate all the mostly civil discourse. Most everyone is afraid to talk about the hard stuff because many start to get trollish (or medieval in real life).
Everyone wants the country to come together; yet, no one wants to have civil discussions in order to make that happen. Many times, when it becomes clear that someone's argument is on faulty ground, the insults start flying.
Another thing I've noticed is that we don't seem to try to understand why others believe as they do. If we did, we may find that we actually agree.
We don't really ask the important questions; we do though sometimes just bark out our beliefs.
That said,
dougellen1 wrote:Obama had the lowest 8 year average of federal pay raises ever.
Assuming that's true:
You've stated a dry fact. But, how to you feel about that fact? What ... is your opinion of that fact.
Do you believe that probably, most Presidents in their first term give raises essentially, to try to win more votes from federal employees?
Did you look into whether federal raises tend to coincide with second-term election years? If so, what did you find?
If true, do you agree with that practice? Is it fair to private sector workers?
How did federal pay compare to the private sector during that time frame?
Userque - as you are now well aware, few here listen to rational thoughts. To them, it is much more important to be perceived as being right (and therefore "superior") than to discover the truth hidden deeeeep down under layers of mud slung about. Because "feelings" and pride outweigh reason and finding common ground.
'Murica 2020 and beyond.
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
― Mahatma Gandhi
If it's a choice between a difficult truth and a simple lie, people will take the lie every time. Even if it kills them.
― Paul Murray
bloobs wrote:Userque - as you are now well aware, few here listen to rational thoughts. To them, it is much more important to be perceived as being right (and therefore "superior") than to discover the truth hidden deeeeep down under layers of mud slung about. Because "feelings" and pride outweigh reason and finding common ground.
'Murica 2020 and beyond.
True, except I believe most do listen to rational thought, and may actually have a change of mind, but may never admit it.
Much of the hate displayed is a result of someone not giving the other (believing that they were right) the "satisfaction" of admitting that they were wrong; even after all the arguments and counter-arguments have been made--the arguing nevertheless continues, someone looking for the dopamine rush of 'being right, once again.' If we can rid ourselves of the desire to hear that 'atta-boy/girl,' we'd be better off.
We'd also be better off if, like you mentioned, we can lower our pride a bit and admit to being wrong.
One thing I find that helps to reduce the noise, is to first, clearly understand the other's positions. A non-responsive answer (or no answer at all) to that line of questioning can be very telling.
Another thing is I try to debate specifics where possible. If someone yells "[insert political party here] SUCK!" I wouldn't just jump in, defending that party; I'd first ask, "Well, why do you say that?" Also, I may agree that some things do suck about that party.
The response would likely also be general, but I'd keep drilling down until we finally get to what the problems are, specifically ... and go from there.
I know ... I get it ... no one wants to go through the trouble of actually defending their negative positions, especially if they don't know how.
_________________ "That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong."
--Christopher Buckley
I'm tired of people asking to cut "social welfare programs" but if you want to take a nickel out of the military budget you are looked upon as unpatriotic. Why does everyone have to preface their comments about the military with copious accolades? It should be understood that we can enjoy everything else that comes with this beautiful life because of them. The modern American military is a huge, sophisticated jobs program and there's waste prevalent throughout. Of course, they keep us safe, as do the civilian contractors, the intelligence agencies, and federal law enforcement. But I'm not going to take you seriously if you think that the military and the defense contractors don't get everything and then some. Many programs are designed to spend money. The American people will (and should) write a blank check to do what it takes to accomplish the mission. But if the mission is constantly changing, or vague or not even possible, then we need to reexamine a few things.
The same thing applies to federal agencies. 10% does 90%...and we all think we're the ones in that 10%.
The solution to either of those problems isn't to put a cleaver to the spending. The solution also isn't to mess around with people's retirements, that's not going to do anything to solve govt waste.
bloobs wrote:Userque - as you are now well aware, few here listen to rational thoughts. To them, it is much more important to be perceived as being right (and therefore "superior") than to discover the truth hidden deeeeep down under layers of mud slung about. Because "feelings" and pride outweigh reason and finding common ground.
'Murica 2020 and beyond.
True, except I believe most do listen to rational thought, and may actually have a change of mind, but may never admit it.
Much of the hate displayed is a result of someone not giving the other (believing that they were right) the "satisfaction" of admitting that they were wrong; even after all the arguments and counter-arguments have been made--the arguing nevertheless continues, someone looking for the dopamine rush of 'being right, once again.' If we can rid ourselves of the desire to hear that 'atta-boy/girl,' we'd be better off.
We'd also be better off if, like you mentioned, we can lower our pride a bit and admit to being wrong.
One thing I find that helps to reduce the noise, is to first, clearly understand the other's positions. A non-responsive answer (or no answer at all) to that line of questioning can be very telling.
Another thing is I try to debate specifics where possible. If someone yells "[insert political party here] SUCK!" I wouldn't just jump in, defending that party; I'd first ask, "Well, why do you say that?" Also, I may agree that some things do suck about that party.
The response would likely also be general, but I'd keep drilling down until we finally get to what the problems are, specifically ... and go from there.
I know ... I get it ... no one wants to go through the trouble of actually defending their negative positions, especially if they don't know how.
_________________ "That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong."
--Christopher Buckley
This has been a major concept for me. I initially grew up, being taught to follow only one party and live and die by its ideals. No matter how that party changes over time, I was taught to spew their information out like its candy and not question anything. After moving out of the house, I did a lot questioning (as you mentioned), looked at facts and then looked at how those facts played out in real life. Things became very, very different. As a result, I became a centrist without any affiliation and decided that if one party/person were to get my vote, their ideas, record and information would have to line up with mine and what I see as the most important things in life. That's why, in my view, any reasoned argument includes facts (with reliable sources) and a record that makes sense. At this point, there seems to be only one party, in my view aligning facts with their actions. Hopefully in some years, both parties will go that direction and I can have choice again.
In a more "micro" sense, I have decided for me that responding here to political rants doesn't make sense. Many people are not going to ask the "why" and research their opinions for answers for me or others. Others will just attack you and insult you without knowing anything about you. Some have too much to do anyway. I'm sure most have families, work and hobbies than to spend their time arguing with people they won't ever meet.
Having said that, having a civil discussion with facts and information would be really, really nice.
cswift01 wrote:
...I initially grew up, being taught to follow only one party and live and die by its ideals.... I was taught to spew their information out like its candy and not question anything. After moving out of the house, I did a lot questioning (as you mentioned), looked at facts and then looked at how those facts played out in real life. Things became very, very different. As a result, I became a centrist without any affiliation and decided that if one party/person were to get my vote, their ideas, record and information would have to line up with mine and what I see as the most important things in life. That's why, in my view, any reasoned argument includes facts (with reliable sources) and a record that makes sense. At this point, there seems to be only one party, in my view aligning facts with their actions....
Same here. The process you went through above is called many things: "maturing", "growing up", "evolution", etc. But some people are too afraid to question their pre-arranged belief systems they were indoctrinated into as children. It's too much work. As they say, if you think attaining higher education is too expensive, try ignorance.
And when did being a centrist become a 4-letter word or labels one as a pariah? It's so "cool" to *parrot* extremist views now, left-wing or right-wing. Proof of this are when completely rational moderate figures like John Kasich, Charlie Dent, and Adam Kinzinger (all GOP'ers) are either completely ignored or downright laughed off the stage--in favor of their hate and fear mongering peers.
cswift01 wrote:
....Many people are not going to ask the "why" and research their opinions for answers for me or others. Others will just attack you and insult you without knowing anything about you. Some have too much to do anyway. I'm sure most have families, work and hobbies than to spend their time arguing with people they won't ever meet...
Most people come here to espouse their ill-formed beliefs as a form of self-validation; not to learn new (and possibly paradigm-shifting) knowledge that could make them wiser.
My mantra as a grown-up, is to NEVER EVER BELIEVE TOO STRONGLY IN ANYTHING I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT. I am always curious, and largely receptive to differing opinions--UNLESS THEY'RE JUST INDEFENSIBLY VERIFIED TO BE FACTUALLY WRONG.
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
― Mahatma Gandhi
If it's a choice between a difficult truth and a simple lie, people will take the lie every time. Even if it kills them.
― Paul Murray
cswift01 wrote:
...I initially grew up, being taught to follow only one party and live and die by its ideals.... I was taught to spew their information out like its candy and not question anything. After moving out of the house, I did a lot questioning (as you mentioned), looked at facts and then looked at how those facts played out in real life. Things became very, very different. As a result, I became a centrist without any affiliation and decided that if one party/person were to get my vote, their ideas, record and information would have to line up with mine and what I see as the most important things in life. That's why, in my view, any reasoned argument includes facts (with reliable sources) and a record that makes sense. At this point, there seems to be only one party, in my view aligning facts with their actions....
Same here. The process you went through above is called many things: "maturing", "growing up", "evolution", etc. But some people are too afraid to question their pre-arranged belief systems they were indoctrinated into as children. It's too much work. As they say, if you think attaining higher education is too expensive, try ignorance.
And when did being a centrist become a 4-letter word or labels one as a pariah? It's so "cool" to *parrot* extremist views now, left-wing or right-wing. Proof of this are when completely rational moderate figures like John Kasich, Charlie Dent, and Adam Kinzinger (all GOP'ers) are either completely ignored or downright laughed off the stage--in favor of their hate and fear mongering peers.
cswift01 wrote:
....Many people are not going to ask the "why" and research their opinions for answers for me or others. Others will just attack you and insult you without knowing anything about you. Some have too much to do anyway. I'm sure most have families, work and hobbies than to spend their time arguing with people they won't ever meet...
Most people come here to espouse their ill-formed beliefs as a form of self-validation; not to learn new (and possibly paradigm-shifting) knowledge that could make them wiser.
My mantra as a grown-up, is to NEVER EVER BELIEVE TOO STRONGLY IN ANYTHING I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT. I am always curious, and largely receptive to differing opinions--UNLESS THEY'RE JUST INDEFENSIBLY VERIFIED TO BE FACTUALLY WRONG.
Optimus187 wrote:
It's called life .A lot of people would love your 70k salary and would have a more glass half full outlook about that.
if saying Orange Man bad makes you feel better . Have at it
Hope things get better for ya
No, I love my 70k a year. But in new York state, it barely gets a family by. The user above you said 'because I live in NYC and I made the wrong choices', in other words..
I was born 50 miles north of the city and moved even further north. I'm NOT in the city I'm in the hudson valley.. Taxes on a home are 10k a year here! And any home that is turn key ready is easily 300k. Make that happen on 70k a year is extremely difficult!
You're obviously a Tim pool fan when you say "orange man bad"... Look, people above me wrote that taxing the wealthy is stealing assets and should be a crime... How about 'orange man' cutting 45 billion of disability social security, which helps some 4.5 million children with dead or disabled parents? Why is it OK to fucking tax the poor over and over and socialism is only ok for the rich? I don't abide by that at all.
Navig8tor wrote:SLASH the needlessly huge military budget <<< must be coming from someone who's never donned a military uniform or studied history. The biggest military expenditure is PERSONNEL. Personnel who generally make well less than their civilian-equivalent counterparts for what may be the prime of their working lives should they remain in uniform for 20-30 years. Putting it bluntly, YOUR military cannot function without PERSONNEL. Personnel cost money to train, feed, outfit with kit, deploy, do the King's Business and then come home broken, battered, missing arms and legs or they come home in coffins (so that YOU don't have to).
But, slash the needlessly huge military budget because we don't need planes, ships, tanks, submarines, weapons and PERSONNEL to run them. We don't need to protect our borders; look out for national interests abroad; protect our allies; or project international dominance so that our WIDE OPEN BORDERS are not overrun by the China's, North Korean's and Iran's of the world. NAH - that will never happen <<< So say the uniformed naysayers. For anyone over the age of 19, it already has happened <<< 9/11 will never happen either, right?!?!
There are enough chemical and biological weapons circulating the world to wipe out a major U.S. city in a matter of weeks - who do you think is guarding your city water supply - the answer is NO ONE. Who do you think is guarding your power grid - the answer is NO ONE. What do you think will happen to our infrastructure if it ever happens again? If I were you, I wouldn't dare think for a minute that it can't, or WON'T, happen again. Something for you to think about while standing in the security line at the airport, you know, so you have something to do besides complain about the "inconvenience" and the wait.
Military advances worldwide REQUIRE we maintain, if not exceed, the pace of the rest of the world. Russia now has essentially indefensible HYPERSONIC weapons; North Korea will never stop trying to develop nuclear weapons; Iran will never stop harboring and facilitating terrorism, and China alone would probably give us a run for our money if they unleashed. If you think for half a second we can handle Russia, North Korea, Iran and China at the same time, you are severely misinformed. As much as I bleed Red, White and Blue, and as much as I believe in our military - I don't think we can handle that kind of heat.
But - slash that military budget. I'm not denying the military wastes some money; however, that's because of the government procurement system. The military is budgeted just as any other entity is budgeted. The two branches I served in STRUGGLED to get enough money to support the myriad of missions they are tasked to conduct. That's been since I joined in 1986, and I continue to serve the military to this day as a civilian.
As a 30-year active duty member of the Marine's and Coast Guard I can tell you the Marine Corps has been, and probably still is, "beg, borrow and steal," since the year the Corps was created (1775). The Coast Guard is still driving ships that are 40-50 YEARS OLD and RIFE with mechanical and structural problems. Trust me when I tell you, you DO NOT want to be on a 45-year old Coast Guard Cutter in the Bering Sea when it's -25 degrees and you're in 50+ foot seas getting your a$$ handed to you while the ship is flooding from both ends because it's so old and decrepit. We do that ALL DAY EVERY DAY so that you can go to Red Lobster and eat King Crab legs while complaining about how much it costs. Safeguarding the Alaskan Crab Fleet is a small percentage of what the Coast Guard does, and they are doing with life-vital equipment that is probably older than you are. It's downright pathetic!! But, until you've had your a$$ in the grass and seen it firsthand, that's the crap most American's never hear about. Our military just keeps on keeping on, doing what needs to be done and you don't hear much complaining about it from the troops. They signed up for it; they DO THEIR JOB AND THEN SOME!!
Find someplace else, other then military, to SLASH the budget. Start with the pork-belly social welfare programs, the hand-outs to everyone and their brother, and the continued move to make everything "free." Everything is NOT free >>> at one end or the other of any deal SOMEONE has to pay for it!
I will say it again. SLASH THE MILITARY BUDGET. We don't need to continue to spead/waste all this money on new ways to kill people. Maybe rebuild the crumbling homeland? Maybe think about getting our health care system out of the gutter? Maybe think about investing in education? At this rate USA will just continue to be a highly uneducated country with a huge military that pushes the rest of the world around. And that might be why the rest of the world hates us so much. Think progress. Must rebuild homeland.
Navig8tor wrote:SLASH the needlessly huge military budget <<< must be coming from someone who's never donned a military uniform or studied history. The biggest military expenditure is PERSONNEL. Personnel who generally make well less than their civilian-equivalent counterparts for what may be the prime of their working lives should they remain in uniform for 20-30 years. Putting it bluntly, YOUR military cannot function without PERSONNEL. Personnel cost money to train, feed, outfit with kit, deploy, do the King's Business and then come home broken, battered, missing arms and legs or they come home in coffins (so that YOU don't have to).
But, slash the needlessly huge military budget because we don't need planes, ships, tanks, submarines, weapons and PERSONNEL to run them. We don't need to protect our borders; look out for national interests abroad; protect our allies; or project international dominance so that our WIDE OPEN BORDERS are not overrun by the China's, North Korean's and Iran's of the world. NAH - that will never happen <<< So say the uniformed naysayers. For anyone over the age of 19, it already has happened <<< 9/11 will never happen either, right?!?!
There are enough chemical and biological weapons circulating the world to wipe out a major U.S. city in a matter of weeks - who do you think is guarding your city water supply - the answer is NO ONE. Who do you think is guarding your power grid - the answer is NO ONE. What do you think will happen to our infrastructure if it ever happens again? If I were you, I wouldn't dare think for a minute that it can't, or WON'T, happen again. Something for you to think about while standing in the security line at the airport, you know, so you have something to do besides complain about the "inconvenience" and the wait.
Military advances worldwide REQUIRE we maintain, if not exceed, the pace of the rest of the world. Russia now has essentially indefensible HYPERSONIC weapons; North Korea will never stop trying to develop nuclear weapons; Iran will never stop harboring and facilitating terrorism, and China alone would probably give us a run for our money if they unleashed. If you think for half a second we can handle Russia, North Korea, Iran and China at the same time, you are severely misinformed. As much as I bleed Red, White and Blue, and as much as I believe in our military - I don't think we can handle that kind of heat.
But - slash that military budget. I'm not denying the military wastes some money; however, that's because of the government procurement system. The military is budgeted just as any other entity is budgeted. The two branches I served in STRUGGLED to get enough money to support the myriad of missions they are tasked to conduct. That's been since I joined in 1986, and I continue to serve the military to this day as a civilian.
As a 30-year active duty member of the Marine's and Coast Guard I can tell you the Marine Corps has been, and probably still is, "beg, borrow and steal," since the year the Corps was created (1775). The Coast Guard is still driving ships that are 40-50 YEARS OLD and RIFE with mechanical and structural problems. Trust me when I tell you, you DO NOT want to be on a 45-year old Coast Guard Cutter in the Bering Sea when it's -25 degrees and you're in 50+ foot seas getting your a$$ handed to you while the ship is flooding from both ends because it's so old and decrepit. We do that ALL DAY EVERY DAY so that you can go to Red Lobster and eat King Crab legs while complaining about how much it costs. Safeguarding the Alaskan Crab Fleet is a small percentage of what the Coast Guard does, and they are doing it with life-vital equipment that is probably older than you are. It's downright pathetic!! But, until you've had your a$$ in the grass and seen it firsthand, that's the crap most American's never hear about. Our military just keeps on keeping on, doing what needs to be done and you don't hear much complaining about it from the troops. They signed up for it; they DO THEIR JOB AND THEN SOME!!
Find someplace else, other then military, to SLASH the budget. Start with the pork-belly social welfare programs, the hand-outs to everyone and their brother, and the continued move to make everything "free." Everything is NOT free >>> at one end or the other of any deal SOMEONE has to pay for it!
I will say it again. SLASH THE MILITARY BUDGET. We don't need to continue to spead/waste all this money on new ways to kill people. Maybe rebuild the crumbling homeland? Maybe think about getting our health care system out of the gutter? Maybe think about investing in education? At this rate USA will just continue to be a highly uneducated country with a huge military that pushes the rest of the world around. And that might be why the rest of the world hates us so much. Think progress. Must rebuild homeland.
Well - it's not going to happen. However, I wholeheartedly respect your right to state your opinion...as well as the creativity and wishful thinking you've presented. Cheerio, Mate!
