Impending Termination :(

[Scout]

I have a lot of experience in this field. You may qualify for unemployment. Depends on the state, but most will grant it after learning you resigned after receiving notice of intent to remove and if the removal is not related to conduct that is wrongful/fraudulent.

Some people live for the fight. Go ahead if that's you, but if not, you are just avoiding the real task of finding a better job and quality of life.

[aowilkins]

If my previous post was not clear.

LIST OF PEOPLE NOT TO TALK TO:
1. UNION
2.HR
3.PEOPLE who have not beat the situation you are talking about.
4. One of your real estate lawyer friends.
5. Supervisor
6. Chief of Staff
7. Management

LIST OF PEOPLE TO TALK TO:
1. PEOPLE that make money from protecting your employment rights(Employment Rights Attorney(Your agency pays the fees when you win, )
2. People that have already been where you are.

Talking to UNION and HR only runs down the play clock. There specific provisions and respond to deadlines 30 , 45, 90 days etc.

Don't fart around with this please this is serious.
Getting fired from a Gov't job will disbar you/ preclude you from ever working for the Govt, VA, Military again. Point blank Period. Do not delay.

This goes for everyone that posted on this thread!!!
Employment Attorneys should charge your agency when they WIN!!!, So what are you waiting for?

"DC EMPLOYEE DISCRIMINATORILY FIRED REINSTATED THROUGH P&K REPRESENTATION
On July 10, 2017, the District of Columbia Office of Human Rights (OHR) issued its Final Order in Massengale v. D.C. Fire and Emergency Medical Services, OHR Docket No: 14-360-DC(CN). OHR reversed Ms. Massengale's 2014 termination, finding that her termination was in retaliation for Ms. Massengale's 2013 OHR complaint of sex discrimination, and ordered her reinstated with back pay. Ms. Massengale was represented by Passman & Kaplan Senior Counsel Adria S. Zeldin."

For more information please see my PM.

[userque]

https://www.passmanandkaplan.com
Passman and Kaplan.

Step 1. Order thier book. Federal employees legal survival guide.
Step 2. Give them a call immediately. The longer you wait the less remedies you have. I believe the initial consultation is free. Call them no.
Step3. Realize that unions really can't do anything for you, Period. Its all just posturing.
-HR works for Management
-Union works for Management(Controlled opposition)[What person in thier right
mind goes after the people that employ them? DUH]
- Do not use the law firm recomended by the union.

Step 4. Don't thank me, just pay this advice forward

Step 5. If you have read this far and have not called Passman and Kaplan yet, you are running out of time. See step 1.

Good post.

Since you (OP) have a union, another avenue may be the Federal Labor Relations Board (Agency interfering with the grievance procedure via retaliation). Not sure if MSPB is available to you.

But really and truly, the best advice is a competent attorney--as stated above. The firm mention above has had success with several EEO cases I'm aware of over the many years.

There's a lot to obtaining workplace justice in termination cases; and doesn't sound like your local has your Managers fearful of them. Not a good sign for you.

Another factor may be how your local feels about you personally.

To do this yourself (the way it works in my neck of the woods):

You must continually hold everyone accountable. Do this via written, verifiable communications. After oral communications, follow up with written.

If the agency is wrong, but the union botches the case, you may seek redress against the union and the agency in outside forums (FLRB, Court).

Ignorance is a defense the union can use successfully in tribunal hearings, as they are not lawyers. In order to remove that defense, you essentially have to notify them of all deadlines, all violations, all evidence that they should seek, etc. So you should generally know: the Contract, labor law, VA rules, regulations, handbooks, manuals, etc.

Keep copies of everything, and keep a log of everything.

Yada yada yada.

But with an attorney, all you have to do is keep logs, copies, and communicate in writing. Ignorance is no excuse for them.

The bottom line is that you want to be returned to the status quo ante (as you were). Whether that's via the agency paying you back pay and re-employing you (or front pay); or via the union paying you back/front pay because they botched the case; (same goes for a law firm that botches the case).

So, you can learn all that you need to know real fast ... after you figure out what you need to know; or you can pay an attorney; or you can focus on a new avenue of employment.

The above is not legal advice, and is based upon what I know, not necessarily what you need to know, as I don't work where you work.

Good luck

[userque]

If my previous post was not clear.

LIST OF PEOPLE NOT TO TALK TO:
1. UNION
...

I just wanted to clarify. IMO, they shouldn't talk to anyone unless directed by their attorney. But, if they don't retain an attorney, they must communicate with the union.

[aowilkins]

The union rep probably won't be an attorney.
A union rep does not make money by protecting your rights.
A union rep might move to a different area/ office.
A union rep might retire.
A union rep might make determinations on your behalf that you didn't agree with
A union rep might not have experience in court cases.

I have experience with this.

Also, when they remove you from you're position do you think you are entitled to the annuity benefit or the government tsp portion?

"Section 44A1.1-1 states that employees who are separated from the service on charges of misconduct or delinquency aren't eligible to discontinued service annuity(DSC)."

[userque]

The union rep probably won't be an attorney.
A union rep does not make money by protecting your rights.
A union rep might move to a different area/ office.
A union rep might retire.
A union rep might make determinations on your behalf that you didn't agree with
A union rep might not have experience in court cases.

I have experience with this.
...

Yes, I agree with your points.

I mentioned that an employee must communicate with the union to invoke their contractual rights as a member. This communication can be via themselves, or an attorney.

Naturally, communication must continue as the case progresses.

The case doesn't rest with a particular steward or person, it belongs to the union. If a steward moves or dies, the case will be re-assigned.

The grievance procedure calls for communication. Period. Don't follow it, and your "grievance" is generally dead in the water.

Typically, at some point, the case becomes solely the union's. They are supposed to know what's best for you, despite what you "think" is best for you. If you disagree with your lawyer, he can walk away. The union can't walk away, so they'll do what they think is best. Here's the rub:

If they get it wrong, and you were correct, then they can be liable. Since they will be held liable, it's their call. It only makes sense.

Stewards don't bring your case to court. They utilize the grievance procedure. When a UNION decides to sue, they have attorneys on retainer. And, they have proper grounds.

Exhaustion of Remedies:

By the way, an aggrieved employee usually can't just wake up one day and sue their employer, and have standing to do so. That's the reason the grievance procedure, the MSPB, the EEOC, the OWCP, the FLRB, the NLRB, the Grievance Procedures, etc. exist; to keep us all out of the courts as much as possible.

You have to first, follow the rules before you go to the next step. The first step is usually a grievance.

You only showed me a little of yours, but I'll show you the full montey:

I've been a steward for several years, and became an full time officer for a term. Apart from my union representation, as an individual, I've also represented employees before the EEOC and MSPB. I've filed several OSHA complaints. I've filed several Labor Board charges. I've represented employees before OWCP. I've done other stuff too.

EDIT: I've even "represented" an employee in Dist. Court. He was involved in a fight and he brandished a pocket knife. Federal LEO's took him into custody, where he was later picked up by the local police and charged.

I went with him in court and I explained who I was, and asked the judge if I could speak. She allowed it.

I beat the charges on a technicality.

[Scorpio70]

The VA has special dispensation to fire anyone by executive order (Trump). It was intended for one thing, but is being used to get rid of people that some don't like. My advice to you is to file the complaint, and apply for the most remote assignment you can. The ones no one wants, and see if you can get hired out there. I know VISN 23 has a hard time getting anyone. I went through something like that once. We had a GS 14 supervisor from hell. She was promoted to get her away from people. I had to hire an attorney to resolve my issue, and then retire 5 years later. The politics at the VA are fascinating.

[drifter81]

The best time to look for another job is when you already have one. Get cracking on usajobs.gov now, along with the issues you must sort out with your place of work.
The fact that you are single is a big plus, and if you have no kids even better. It allows you to be mobile and go where the job offer is.

I've been in the situation where they were creating a file that they could use to fire me if it came to that. I wasted no time shooting out that resume (beginning at the first documented counseling, the job wasn't the best fit for me anyways,) and had a few offers before they did and I was able to stick it to them first.

[bloobs]

The union rep probably won't be an attorney.
A union rep does not make money by protecting your rights.
A union rep might move to a different area/ office.
A union rep might retire.
A union rep might make determinations on your behalf that you didn't agree with
A union rep might not have experience in court cases.

I have experience with this.
...

Yes, I agree with your points.

I mentioned that an employee must communicate with the union to invoke their contractual rights as a member. This communication can be via themselves, or an attorney.

Naturally, communication must continue as the case progresses.

The case doesn't rest with a particular steward or person, it belongs to the union. If a steward moves or dies, the case will be re-assigned.

The grievance procedure calls for communication. Period. Don't follow it, and your "grievance" is generally dead in the water.

Typically, at some point, the case becomes solely the union's. They are supposed to know what's best for you, despite what you "think" is best for you. If you disagree with your lawyer, he can walk away. The union can't walk away, so they'll do what they think is best. Here's the rub:

If they get it wrong, and you were correct, then they can be liable. Since they will be held liable, it's their call. It only makes sense.

Stewards don't bring your case to court. They utilize the grievance procedure. When a UNION decides to sue, they have attorneys on retainer. And, they have proper grounds.

Exhaustion of Remedies:

By the way, an aggrieved employee usually can't just wake up one day and sue their employer, and have standing to do so. That's the reason the grievance procedure, the MSPB, the EEOC, the OWCP, the FLRB, the NLRB, the Grievance Procedures, etc. exist; to keep us all out of the courts as much as possible.

You have to first, follow the rules before you go to the next step. The first step is usually a grievance.

You only showed me a little of yours, but I'll show you the full montey:

I've been a steward for several years, and became an full time officer for a term. Apart from my union representation, as an individual, I've also represented employees before the EEOC and MSPB. I've filed several OSHA complaints. I've filed several Labor Board charges. I've represented employees before OWCP. I've done other stuff too.

EDIT: I've even "represented" an employee in Dist. Court. He was involved in a fight and he brandished a pocket knife. Federal LEO's took him into custody, where he was later picked up by the local police and charged.

I went with him in court and I explained who I was, and asked the judge if I could speak. She allowed it.

I beat the charges on a technicality.

Please do tell on this magical technicality you speak of.

[userque]

Please do tell on this magical technicality you speak of.

The local police charged him with a state crime. I "argued" that the state crime didn't apply as he was a Federal Employee, on Federal Property.

The young prosecutor's cheeks turned bright red; he offered no rebuttal after the Judge gave him an opportunity to respond.

Judge gave employee a short lecture, then dismissed the case.

I didn't have the time/motivation to actually verify that my argument was valid before the trial. It just 'sounded good' and logical to me.

(Some sort of law class was in the gallery. What seemed to be their professor cut us off on our way to the door, shook my hand, and said something like 'Congratulations, good job.'--so maybe the theory was correct. Never bothered to look it up afterwards.)

Employee wanted to ask the Judge for his 'knife back.' I dragged him out of the court room before she could have a chance to think about changing her mind/ruling.

There was more discussion ... but you get the drift.

[Chulke]

Sounds to me like you're being railroaded out the door in a retaliatory fashion....I work for the VA in the IT department in Central Arkansas and can tell you that not all VA's or services within the VA treat their folks this way. If you weren't given a PIP....they are definitely skipping a step and since you've been detailed for so long....they really don't have a leg to stand on if their gripe is poor job performance.

Definitely, hire some legal representation and fight this!!!



Cheers!

[bloobs]

Please do tell on this magical technicality you speak of.

The local police charged him with a state crime. I "argued" that the state crime didn't apply as he was a Federal Employee, on Federal Property.

The young prosecutor's cheeks turned bright red; he offered no rebuttal after the Judge gave him an opportunity to respond.

Judge gave employee a short lecture, then dismissed the case.

I didn't have the time/motivation to actually verify that my argument was valid before the trial. It just 'sounded good' and logical to me.

(Some sort of law class was in the gallery. What seemed to be their professor cut us off on our way to the door, shook my hand, and said something like 'Congratulations, good job.'--so many the theory was correct. Never bothered to look it up afterwards.)

Employee wanted to ask the Judge for his 'knife back.' I dragged him out of the court room before she could have a chance to think about changing her mind/ruling.

There was more discussion ... but you get the drift.

Nice. Amazing how sometimes the best outcome is reached not from trusting advice from the experts, but from our own subconsciously synthesized wisdom over the years. Critical thinking FTW.

PS - if a federal LEO initially broke up the fight, they may have subsequently indicted him in US district court. But that's another story.

[userque]

PS - if a federal LEO initially broke up the fight, they may have subsequently indicted him in US district court. But that's another story.

Thanks bloobs, yeah, it worked out. Good point above. I hadn't considered that.

[beeman]

During the last few years of you negative experiences, have you filed a EEO or union grievance for a "hostile work environment". Did you keep a journal with dates and times of these incidents? Any witnesses? You only had 45 days from the date of the incident to file with EEO. If you are a veteran you still can file a Merit Protection Board Appeal after termination. Of you dont know the rules they will take advantage of you. Or talk to a lawyer familiar with federal employment law asap.

[bloobs]

During the last few years of you negative experiences, have you filed a EEO or union grievance for a "hostile work environment". Did you keep a journal with dates and times of these incidents? Any witnesses? You only had 45 days from the date of the incident to file with EEO. If you are a veteran you still can file a Merit Protection Board Appeal after termination. Of you dont know the rules they will take advantage of you. Or talk to a lawyer familiar with federal employment law asap.

good advice