Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Civil Service Discussion.

Moderator: Aitrus

I'm affect or not and my stance on the wall.

Poll ended at Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:55 pm

I'm out of work because of the shutdown
152
24%
I'm not out of work because of the shutdown
68
11%
Working without pay
41
7%
I agree with the shutdown for funding
291
46%
I don't agree with the shutdown for funding
75
12%
 
Total votes: 627

User avatar
misfit
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:21 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by misfit »

Tessbess wrote:Wonder if furloughed workers who agree with the shutdown will feel the same way next week when their paycheck doesn't arrive.
------------------------------

I'm furloughed and it completely sucks not knowing when the next paycheck may arrive but this shutdown is ABSOLUTELY necessary. Hopefully this will be resolved sooner than later. Promises made promises kept. Good luck everyone!

User avatar
Relevant
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:01 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by Relevant »

The data presented by the poll is a bit skewed. How members are effected by the "partial government shutdown" should not be commingled with their opinion regarding the shutdown.

Of the 314 people weighing in on the "shutdown for funding" question 82% support the shutdown for funding. 259/(259+55)=82%

Of the 215 people providing how they are effected by the shutdown: 59% are out of work due to the shutdown. These folks may or may not get paid. 25% Don't have any skin in the game - they are still working and getting paid. 16% are working without an approved appropriation and will not get paid until a budget is passed but they will get paid. Surprisingly, the folks most at risk of losing income appear to have supported the shutdown.

While statistically these are small numbers, I do find it amazing that 82% support the shutdown for the wall.

The data would have been more interesting if everyone had selected both positions. I'd like to see the poll run again with the 2 subjects segregated and "foot stomping" all members to enter there positions in both polls.

Thanks for the good work - very interesting.

User avatar
misfit
Posts: 257
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:21 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by misfit »

Surprisingly, the folks most at risk of losing income appear to have supported the shutdown.

While statistically these are small numbers, I do find it amazing that 82% support the shutdown for the wall.

------------------------------------

It's a "no brainer". :idea:

mike_bass
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by mike_bass »

misfit wrote:Surprisingly, the folks most at risk of losing income appear to have supported the shutdown.

While statistically these are small numbers, I do find it amazing that 82% support the shutdown for the wall.

------------------------------------

It's a "no brainer". :idea:
Nice to see values still matter.

PhilJohn
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by PhilJohn »

Relevant wrote:The data presented by the poll is a bit skewed. How members are effected by the "partial government shutdown" should not be commingled with their opinion regarding the shutdown.

Of the 314 people weighing in on the "shutdown for funding" question 82% support the shutdown for funding. 259/(259+55)=82%

Of the 215 people providing how they are effected by the shutdown: 59% are out of work due to the shutdown. These folks may or may not get paid. 25% Don't have any skin in the game - they are still working and getting paid. 16% are working without an approved appropriation and will not get paid until a budget is passed but they will get paid. Surprisingly, the folks most at risk of losing income appear to have supported the shutdown.

While statistically these are small numbers, I do find it amazing that 82% support the shutdown for the wall.

The data would have been more interesting if everyone had selected both positions. I'd like to see the poll run again with the 2 subjects segregated and "foot stomping" all members to enter there positions in both polls.

Thanks for the good work - very interesting.

I misunderstood the poll as well. I only chose 1 option in support of funding. I am a Federal Employee who will be reimbursed once a budget is passed.

JDD4J4J
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by JDD4J4J »

ArrieS wrote:
JDD4J4J wrote:The 13th Amendment guarantees those that work will be paid, eventually. Those that do not work are not guaranteed, though there has been precedent.
No.

A business that doesn't pay it's employees isn't in violation of the 13th amendment. The Supreme Court has viewed this amendment as a denial of rights such as citizenship, I.E. the right to vote and own property.

The Supreme Court has not really expanded this. Even the military draft doesn't violate the 13th amendment and I can't think of a closer example of involuntary servitude.
Incorrect.

The 13th amendment abolishes slavery. Excepted employees working during the shutdown are guaranteed back pay once federal agencies are funded and re-open. However, there is no guarantee furloughed employees will receive back pay.

User avatar
ArrieS
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:56 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by ArrieS »

JDD4J4J wrote:
ArrieS wrote:
JDD4J4J wrote:The 13th Amendment guarantees those that work will be paid, eventually. Those that do not work are not guaranteed, though there has been precedent.
No.

A business that doesn't pay it's employees isn't in violation of the 13th amendment. The Supreme Court has viewed this amendment as a denial of rights such as citizenship, I.E. the right to vote and own property.

The Supreme Court has not really expanded this. Even the military draft doesn't violate the 13th amendment and I can't think of a closer example of involuntary servitude.
Incorrect.

The 13th amendment abolishes slavery. Excepted employees working during the shutdown are guaranteed back pay once federal agencies are funded and re-open. However, there is no guarantee furloughed employees will receive back pay.
What's incorrect?

Are you implying that not paying someone for their work is slavery? If so, please show me all the business owners that have gone to jail for slavery when they failed to pay employees. Please, come up with just one example of an employer convicted of slavery for failing to pay wages.

Employees are guaranteed back pay under the Fair Labor Standards Act.
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishes minimum wage, overtime pay, recordkeeping, and child labor standards affecting full-time and part-time workers in the private sector and in Federal, State, and local governments.
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/hrg.htm#12
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

User avatar
evilanne
Posts: 2067
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 6:52 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by evilanne »

Congress should have settled everything back in September rather than kicking the can down the road but they were more focused on getting through the mid-terms and taking multiple breaks rather than finishing the job. I think our Representatives & Senators should lose 1 week of pay for every day of Government shut down (in whole or in part).

I'm tired of hearing the same arguments on immigration year after year--the same ones for over 3 decades now. They waste $$Millions/Billions on many things every year, so I don't think barrier funding is unreasonable. Maybe this time will be different and they will actually fix something. I'm not holding my breath.

User avatar
jlozano042
Posts: 836
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:37 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by jlozano042 »

evilanne wrote:Congress should have settled everything back in September rather than kicking the can down the road but they were more focused on getting through the mid-terms and taking multiple breaks rather than finishing the job. I think our Representatives & Senators should lose 1 week of pay for every day of Government shut down (in whole or in part).

I'm tired of hearing the same arguments on immigration year after year--the same ones for over 3 decades now. They waste $$Millions/Billions on many things every year, so I don't think barrier funding is unreasonable. Maybe this time will be different and they will actually fix something. I'm not holding my breath.
I'm voting for you in 2020! :D

JDD4J4J
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:21 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by JDD4J4J »

ArrieS wrote:
Incorrect.

The 13th amendment abolishes slavery. Excepted employees working during the shutdown are guaranteed back pay once federal agencies are funded and re-open. However, there is no guarantee furloughed employees will receive back pay.
What's incorrect?

Are you implying that not paying someone for their work is slavery? If so, please show me all the business owners that have gone to jail for slavery when they failed to pay employees. Please, come up with just one example of an employer convicted of slavery for failing to pay wages.

Employees are guaranteed back pay under the Fair Labor Standards Act.
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) establishes minimum wage, overtime pay, recordkeeping, and child labor standards affecting full-time and part-time workers in the private sector and in Federal, State, and local governments.
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/hrg.htm#12[/quote]

Indeed. At this point the discussion seems to have come down to semantics between the documents that are the "bone" and the "muscle" of the legal argument of why those that work are legally entitled to be paid for their time worked. The FLSA is a beautiful piece of legislation that fills in areas of rights for the worker that the constitution leaves undefined. The Taft Hartley Act on the other hand is an unfortunate piece of legislation that worked to create arguable loop holes to the FLSA and NLRA, as applicable.

User avatar
Relevant
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:01 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by Relevant »

In my nearly 38 years of federal service I've been though 3 government shutdowns driven by congress and 1 agency directed furlough. Congress authorized back-pay for everyone, the ones that worked and the ones sent home in all 3 cases. DOD screwed me on their furlough because it was driven by DOD politics and their mismanagement, not congress.

Jamters
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:48 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by Jamters »

GS-5 Federal Employee Base Salary
GS-5 government employees will receive a base salary of between $28,945.00 and $37,630.00, depending on their General Schedule Step. $28,945.00 is 13.87 per hour.

The educational and experience requirements for most GS-5 government jobs are:

Associate's Degree
At least 1 year experience at GS-4 or equivalent
The General Schedule pay raise this year was 0.0%. This translates to a base pay raise of approximately $0.00 for a GS-5 Step 1 employee.

Just a guess: Not many GS-5's trying to support a family living paycheck to paycheck are here at TSPcenter - so they aren't taking the poll. They can't afford to worry about their TSP. They contribute the bare minimum to TSP because they worry about today and tomorrow. They worry about student loans, credit cards, food, rent, car payments, medical bills, day care, insurance etc. They are trying to establish credit and wonder how being late because they don't have a paycheck to pay this month's bill will affect that precious score. They shake their heads when the government sends them a sample form letter they can use to offer to exchange handyman services for rent. They don't live in Trump Tower and even if they did, do you think that would be an acceptable form of rent there?

We're here at TSPcenter because we're fortunate enough to be at a place in our lives we can save for retirement - wishing you had 'free leave' or complaining because you have to work, are getting paid and resenting those that will get back pay for their "vacation" is disappointing. There are 800,000 affected. Many don't have the luxury of a safety net and would gladly trade places with any of us. For the record - I'm working, getting paid and don't agree with the shutdown. If it is a national emergency - then it should have been addressed first instead of the tax cuts. It wasn't... because it isn't.

Tessbess
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:49 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by Tessbess »

Thanks, Jamters - so well said. You may have explained the surprising poll results supporting the shutdown. Although I'm one of the lucky ones with TSP savings, tomorrow I am closing on a loan at one of the Federal credit unions offering loans for furloughed employees. I need to know that I can make my next mortgage payment.

User avatar
mjedlin66
Site Admin
Posts: 1569
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:51 pm

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by mjedlin66 »

evilanne wrote:Congress should have settled everything back in September rather than kicking the can down the road but they were more focused on getting through the mid-terms and taking multiple breaks rather than finishing the job. I think our Representatives & Senators should lose 1 week of pay for every day of Government shut down (in whole or in part).

I'm tired of hearing the same arguments on immigration year after year--the same ones for over 3 decades now. They waste $$Millions/Billions on many things every year, so I don't think barrier funding is unreasonable. Maybe this time will be different and they will actually fix something. I'm not holding my breath.
Consider for a moment that building a real wall along the border would easily cost in excess of $50 billion. Why? Because there has been no comprehensive design. The impact on flood flow and ecology hasn't even been glanced at in any real manner. Considerations of soil differences, erosion, waterways, earthquake resistance, and similar issues haven't been adequately studied.

In addition, any wall you build will be easily defeated. The steel prototype that was touted by the Trump administration can be cut through with a battery powered sawzall. Even a concrete barrier can be climbed over with a ladder and a rope.

Finally, most of our illegal immigrants are visa overstays. The drug dealers often use tunnels or come right through our checkpoints. The people who sneak across the desert are most often just desperate farmers- and for them, a much more liberal work visa program is the obvious solution.

So we're going to build a prohibitively expensive wall that will create more problems than it will solve, AND we still won't have addressed the urgent need for an easy work visa.

Great.
Owner/creator of TSPcalc.com - "Know your numbers"

User avatar
Billionair
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 11:27 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown.

Post by Billionair »

mjedlin66 wrote:
evilanne wrote:Congress should have settled everything back in September rather than kicking the can down the road but they were more focused on getting through the mid-terms and taking multiple breaks rather than finishing the job. I think our Representatives & Senators should lose 1 week of pay for every day of Government shut down (in whole or in part).

I'm tired of hearing the same arguments on immigration year after year--the same ones for over 3 decades now. They waste $$Millions/Billions on many things every year, so I don't think barrier funding is unreasonable. Maybe this time will be different and they will actually fix something. I'm not holding my breath.
Consider for a moment that building a real wall along the border would easily cost in excess of $50 billion. Why? Because there has been no comprehensive design. The impact on flood flow and ecology hasn't even been glanced at in any real manner. Considerations of soil differences, erosion, waterways, earthquake resistance, and similar issues haven't been adequately studied.

In addition, any wall you build will be easily defeated. The steel prototype that was touted by the Trump administration can be cut through with a battery powered sawzall. Even a concrete barrier can be climbed over with a ladder and a rope.

Finally, most of our illegal immigrants are visa overstays. The drug dealers often use tunnels or come right through our checkpoints. The people who sneak across the desert are most often just desperate farmers- and for them, a much more liberal work visa program is the obvious solution.

So we're going to build a prohibitively expensive wall that will create more problems than it will solve, AND we still won't have addressed the urgent need for an easy work visa.

Great.
There is so many issues with Visa overstay's. They come as a B2 Visitor, and then immediately claim asylum, and stay in the system for almost ten years. I deal with this stuff all the time. Immigration laws need to be changed, but a lot of our arrests and deportations come from criminals entering EWI (entering without inspection), across the Texas and Arizona Border. Especially the aggravated felons. I'm glad someone is finally addressing immigration, but I do agree it should have been first, before tax reform.

This year will be immigration and infrastructure. I wrote legislative policy on mostly veteran bills, and it was unanimous for the most part. But as soon as you say immigration in Congress, no one wants a definitive stance for midterms/elections, so they kick the question/can always down the road. We're finally coming to terms in America that there is roughly 10-30 million unaccounted for people, who need some type of status.

This issue though shouldn't affect people at TSA, the SS, our IRS, or other federal agencies, but it does. I feel for all furloughed, but we knew the risk working for the government. Hopefully, 2019 will bring us a pay raise/promotion and step increase and a bonus.
-What we do in Life, echoes in Retirement-

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