Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Civil Service Discussion.

Moderator: Aitrus

My work situation and my stance on the wall funding.

Poll ended at Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:37 am

No Work; No Pay
109
15%
I work; No Pay
122
17%
I work; I'm paid
118
16%
I support the shutdown for wall funding
310
43%
I don't support the shutdown for wall funding
57
8%
 
Total votes: 716

PhilJohn
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by PhilJohn »

The way I see things, I knew the deal when I signed up. This was not the first shutdown, it won't be the last. Probably a good idea to save a little in your savings. I think it's harder for new staff who really haven't had a chance to save, but its part of being new. Almost a right of passage. We will get paid. We probably won't be charged annual or sick leave if we missed. It's a far cry from someone who actually goes through real hardship in the civilian sector. I remember what it's like to get laid off, not pleasant.

As far as Trump, If I were him, I would call for a national emergency before Jan. 15th. I would make it explicit that the opposing party benefits from Illegal Immigration and are simply not willing to put American's first. I would highlight no faith in Democrats coming to the table to avoid another shutdown or to find compromise. Of course the Democrats will go Judge shopping in an attempt to disrupt, but it would be hot tracked to the Sup Court and overturned anyway. It's a win, win, IMHO.

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tsd906
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by tsd906 »

tspwizard1 wrote:There is no crisis at the border. Trump knows to even have a chance at being re-elected (if he isn't impeached by 2020) he needs that wall to please his non-college grad white base. His bread and butter. The wall is a symbol to them of their perceived superiority over brown people. Nothing more. These low wage, uneducated Trump supporters choose to blame brown people for their lack of money. They see the affluent culture of America and want in. However, the door is closed. And they are mad about it. Gotta be someone's fault right? In steps Trump pointing the finger at brown people and says build a wall. They mindlessly chant back.

A wall will not stop drugs, or lower crime. It is a waste of money. More money this country doesn't have to begin with. It also would be an environmental disaster. Which not many people are talking about.

How would Trump supporters feel about 'a national emergency' being declared? I thought Republicans hated the idea of government overreach. What about the land owners who would have property seized due to eminent domain? Is that ok with them? As long as it's not their families land I guess? And what goes around is all around as Ricky says. I just pray someday soon Trump supporters will stop being such mindless lemmings. Look at what is really going on here. Country over blind allegiance to a con man.

TSP Wizard, do you work on the Border? Are you, in anyway, associated with Border Security work? What qualifies you to claim there is no crisis on the Border?

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ArrieS
Posts: 1072
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

PhilJohn wrote: I would make it explicit that the opposing party benefits from Illegal Immigration and are simply not willing to put American's first.
To which Democrats would say if it was such a problem Republicans were free to fix it the last two years when they had control.

How do you respond to that?
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rcozby
Posts: 341
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by rcozby »

ArrieS wrote:
PhilJohn wrote: I would make it explicit that the opposing party benefits from Illegal Immigration and are simply not willing to put American's first.
To which Democrats would say if it was such a problem Republicans were free to fix it the last two years when they had control.

How do you respond to that?
The budget process. It takes the first year for the President to convey his requirements to the staff and another year for the staff to come back with a validated plan and cost analysis that can be submitted to Congress. Thus, unfortunately for him, this is Trump's first opportunity to have a meaningful influence on national spending.

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ArrieS
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

rcozby wrote: The budget process. It takes the first year for the President to convey his requirements to the staff and another year for the staff to come back with a validated plan and cost analysis that can be submitted to Congress. Thus, unfortunately for him, this is Trump's first opportunity to have a meaningful influence on national spending.
No. Just no.
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rcozby
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by rcozby »

ArrieS wrote: No. Just no.
Having contributed to the budgets of the past five Presidents, including the current one, I'm sorry to say that it really is yes, just yes.

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ArrieS
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

rcozby wrote:
ArrieS wrote: No. Just no.
Having contributed to the budgets of the past five Presidents, including the current one, I'm sorry to say that it really is yes, just yes.
It's no because it doesn't have to be in the budget. Are you saying no bill outside of the budget has had spending?

Congress has never passed any bill with spending attached to it besides the budget? There are no such things as appropriations bill that can be passed outside of a budget?
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

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rcozby
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by rcozby »

ArrieS wrote:
It's no because it doesn't have to be in the budget. Are you saying no bill outside of the budget has had spending?

Congress has never passed any bill with spending attached to it besides the budget?
Generally, if unbudgeted spending is required, it needs to be in response to a national emergency, which is why there's been RECENT talk about doing just that. I think most reasonable people would agree that, while the problem is important, it certainly isn't a national emergency...yet, at least. So Trump has been trying (quite vigorously, I'll add) to use the correct and appropriate processes to get the job done, and it would have worked fine were it not for some pretty significant retirements of some House Republicans and the subsequent blue wavelet over there.

So, now Trump's in a pickle and may have to resort to the methods you suggest, but it certainly isn't the most desirable way to get the job done.

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ArrieS
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

rcozby wrote:Generally, if unbudgeted spending is required, it needs to be in response to a national emergency, which is why there's been RECENT talk about doing just that. I think most reasonable people would agree that, while the problem is important, it certainly isn't a national emergency...yet, at least. So Trump has been trying (quite vigorously, I'll add) to use the correct and appropriate processes to get the job done, and it would have worked fine were it not for some pretty significant retirements of some House Republicans and the subsequent blue wavelet over there.

So, now Trump's in a pickle and may have to resort to the methods you suggest, but it certainly isn't the most desirable way to get the job done.
Now to retouch on your claimed two year timeline.

Why was President Trump able to submit a Budget to Congress in 2017 for FY 18 that outlined $54 billion in cuts to federal agencies and an increase in defense spending?

Wouldn't he have to wait the
rcozby wrote:first year...to convey his requirements to the staff and another year for the staff to come back with a validated plan and cost analysis that can be submitted to Congress.
How could any newly elected President propose any change in a budget if they're supposed to wait with such timelines?

Not to mention the Presidents budget is only a suggestion and Congress is free to create any budget they want.
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

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rcozby
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by rcozby »

(not quoting to save space)

These are all great questions...I wish more people would ask them...

Last point first: You're absolutely right. If Congress wanted a Wall, they would have written it into their appropriation and authorization bills and the President would either have to sign or veto. Didn't happen.

The cuts and the increases for FY 18 had been in the oven for years; easy to pull them out and put them on a plate.

The Wall really is a different story. Insider wonks call it a New Start, which is really hard on a good day and impossible under a Continuing Resolution Authorization, which is what we've been under since 1 Oct 18. The Boss had to go to ICE and ask them how much it would cost to build a Wall...and, of course, they had no clue. So they had to figure it out, and then they had to run it through 42 layers of review before it could even get to the Boss's desk. And then someone had to translate it into draft legislation so that Congress could understand exactly what they were going to refuse to do. It takes a lot of time to do nothing of this magnitude!

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ArrieS
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Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

rcozby wrote: The cuts and the increases for FY 18 had been in the oven for years; easy to pull them out and put them on a plate.
You mean like Congress never funding Secure Fence Act of 2006 which they could have immediately pulled out and put that on a plate.

Also, the Presidents proposed FY 2019 budget, submitted in Feb 2018 included a '...proposal for $18 billion to fund the border wall...'

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/u ... fy2019.pdf

That was a year into his Presidency and busts your 2-year timeline.
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

PhilJohn
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by PhilJohn »

I think the awnser is more simple,

Trump regognizes this issue being a hot button with his base and moderates and wanted to fight the issue closer to the 2020 election for obvious reasons. which I think might pay off, politiclly.

I actually think its brilliant.

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ArrieS
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:56 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

PhilJohn wrote:Trump regognizes this issue being a hot button with his base and moderates and wanted to fight the issue closer to the 2020 election for obvious reasons. which I think might pay off, politiclly.

I actually think its brilliant.
Really? Considering the timing around Trump's change in opinion came after Ann Coulter attacked him for not getting funding for the wall? He was going to sign and only changed his stance after that.

This wasn't an issue until Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh went after him.
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

PhilJohn
Posts: 392
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:38 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by PhilJohn »

ArrieS wrote:
PhilJohn wrote:Trump regognizes this issue being a hot button with his base and moderates and wanted to fight the issue closer to the 2020 election for obvious reasons. which I think might pay off, politiclly.

I actually think its brilliant.
Really? Considering the timing around Trump's change in opinion came after Ann Coulter attacked him for not getting funding for the wall? He was going to sign and only changed his stance after that.

This wasn't an issue until Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh went after him.
I really don’t focus on political conspiracy. He is now in a very good position politically to get exactly what he wants. Democrats for the most part underestimate Trump as a politician, which is a large reason why Democrats woke up after election night having various mental breakdowns that I very much enjoyed observing.

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ArrieS
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:56 am

Re: Just taking a poll about the shutdown, again.

Post by ArrieS »

PhilJohn wrote:I really don’t focus on political conspiracy.
Great because it's not.
Trump considers delaying border wall fight until January
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/ ... ay-1064857

When questioned the White House did not dispute it.
GOP talks Trump off the shutdown ledge

...but McConnell said the White House is now “flexible” on border wall funding, just one week after Trump said he’d be “proud” to shut down the government in a fight over border security.
This statement was not refuted by the White House.
Conservative media turns on Trump for going wobbly on the wall
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/ ... ll-1071391

It's hard to see why the White House would change its stance until after everyone including Fox New started bashing him.
PhilJohn wrote:He is now in a very good position politically to get exactly what he wants.
You're going to have to explain that. His only recourse is National Emergency and that's easy to defeat.
PhilJohn wrote:Democrats for the most part underestimate Trump as a politician, which is a large reason why Democrats woke up after election night having various mental breakdowns that I very much enjoyed observing.
What are you talking about? Anyways, I enjoyed watching the shutdown end.

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OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

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