Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

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bloobs
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by bloobs »

evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:26 pm So you think a hit piece on conservatives from psychology site proves anything? Would’t this fall in the pseudoscience side of your chart?
A "hit piece" is defined as an article, a documentary, etc. that deliberately tries to make somebody/something look bad by presenting information about them that appears to be true and accurate but actually is not.

If you actually read this article beyond its title, you would have noticed that the multiple studies it cites all meet scientific criteria (e.g. not from some crackpot social media sites run from a shut-in's basement). Read it (again?) below, but this time OBJECTIVELY:

https://www.psypost.org/2020/11/conserv ... king-58459
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am Since the vaccines will not prevent you from getting or dying from the Delta variant...
This statement is so patently false, its like saying the earth is flat. The vaccine has been proven to be mostly effective in preventing disease. Why do you keep telling everyone this? Below is what comes to mind when I hear you repeat this here over and over again: “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
-- Joseph Goebbels
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am
bloobs wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:29 am Science (using basic math and statistical methods) have repeatedly established this oddly persisting assertion in social media to be completely unfounded.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am Your last statement proves nothing. Logically, if the vaccines prevented you from getting COVID, you wouldn’t need a booster and you can go to the FDA hearing (posted twice previously) on the boosters and
find the evidence that it isn’t effective against the Delta variant.
Ma'am, logically (and technically) the use of the scientific method (not pseudoscientific) is the universally understood approach to prove anything. That is what it is for, according to every science and math teacher I have ever met.

Secondly, why do you persist believing that the authorization of a booster shot proves a vaccine is ineffective? That has been common knowledge for over a century. SMH at the stubbornness. There is always room for learning new better things and unlearning old wrong things.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am --Once they started the vaccines, they reduced the iterations of the PCR tests resulting in less false positives
Who's they? If, ironically, you meant that "they" is WHO (World Health Organization) [ :lol: see what I did there :lol: ] well....

The claim that WHO changed its COVID-19 testing guidelines (e.g. fewer iterations) is FALSE. WHO's information notice, first appearing on Dec. 7, 2020, urged laboratories new to COVID-19 PCR testing to follow manufacturer instructions to reduce inaccuracy issues. Claims that WHO would be reducing the number of cycles, or the number of times PCR is run in order to amplify DNA contained within a sample, are mentioned nowhere in WHO's information notice and are unfounded. Similarly, so are claims alleging a single positive COVID-19 test will, by itself, no longer count as a positive case. There is no evidence to suggest asymptomatic individuals will no longer count toward positive COVID-19 cases.

In short, false.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am --Viruses mutate and change over time. The Delta variant is less deadly.
Please cite scientific sources. I will restudy.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am --Despite the censorship, some Doctors did step up & provide early treatment to their patients thus reducing
What censorship? Every nutcase's schizophrenic reality on vaccines has been posted to Twitter a million times over unencumbered. Have you been to a social media site recently? Oh wait...never mind.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am There are now research studies that show that HCQ, Ivermectin and Budesonide are effective in treatment protocols although Fauci and MSM railed against them all last year.
Please cite sources. I will study.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am Image
It's been 80 years (not 6 months) since aliens were supposedly discovered by the feds. Still no proof.
It's terrifying to think that there potentially could be millions of people who have this mindset living amongst us.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am You totally ignore the facts about deaths and injuries caused by the vaccines (it goes against your Pro Vax Only argument.).
Here's the bottom line. Distilled to its absolute simplest points (free of conspiratorial "word salad" intended to confuse by throwing out voluminous words over substance) proven by math and science (i.e. not Twitter):
  • - There are no microchips in the shot. Self-explanatory.
  • You are more likely to infect others unvaccinated. The reason the pandemic persists is that millions refuse to be vaccinated. I am not a sociopath so these don't sit well with me.
  • You are 581 times more likely to die from Covid than from a Pfizer shot. This number didn't come from a big brother web site; I calculated it myself (see earlier post).
  • Most of the conspiracy claims out there REMAIN conspiracy claims. Why? It's not due to government censorship; it's because these claims do not hold weight under careful scientific scrutiny or even simple reasoning logic.
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
― Mahatma Gandhi

If it's a choice between a difficult truth and a simple lie, people will take the lie every time. Even if it kills them.
― Paul Murray

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by Aitrus »

bloobs / evilanne,

I can see both sides of your argument. I think that this comic explains what's going on here, especially panel 6:

Image
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by bloobs »

Aitrus wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:02 am bloobs / evilanne,

I can see both sides of your argument. I think that this comic explains what's going on here, especially panel 6:

Image
Good point Aitrus. I actually have a more effective visual representation below:
Image

So having said that, Ms Evil....how about we seek agreement instead on the following point that is common of both our arguments, namely:

The vaccine should not be relied upon to prevent all deaths/infections, but it does result in less deaths/infections than the other option of natural infection.

Can I get an amen on the above statement?

tspme
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by tspme »

Amen.

The statement succinctly counters the false dichotomy that the COVID-19 vaccine is either 100% effective or useless.

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by evilanne »

bloobs wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:24 pm So having said that, Ms Evil....how about we seek agreement instead on the following point that is common of both our arguments, namely:

The vaccine should not be relied upon to prevent all deaths/infections, but it does result in less deaths/infections than the other option of natural infection.

Can I get an amen on the above statement?
No, I will agree to disagree. We will not know the final outcome for at least several years as this is a new technology and we do not know the long term impact it will have.

You think a national survey on the American political landscape on Global Warming is relevant to this discussion :roll: Sounds like pseudoscience to me. Maybe if you objectively considered the lies from MSM & Dr Fauci over the last year and a half, it might explain why both conservatives and liberals have "distrust in officials" I do agree with your quote by Joseph Goebbels, it appears that you have totally bought the mockingbird media narrative regarding vaccines.

Mandating experimental vaccines for those people with natural immunity and children who have minimal risk from the virus makes absolutely no sense at all.

What evidence have you provided that the vaccines will prevent you from getting or dying from the Delta variant other than screaming that it is false? Try scrolling up and reading or watching some of the videos.
Here is one right on point to my statement viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18903&p=91781&hili ... ant#p91781

Here is post on PCR tests in response to your Fact Check link viewtopic.php?p=91739#p91739. Where is your evidence or you just making stuff up now?
bloobs wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:00 am
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am --Viruses mutate and change over time. The Delta variant is less deadly.
Please cite scientific sources. I will restudy.
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am --Despite the censorship, some Doctors did step up & provide early treatment to their patients thus reducing
We already had a long discussion on Delta Variant Oct 4th-7th regarding the DoD AI study of CMS data viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18903&p=91879&hili ... ant#p91879 This post includes a recent video that banned from YouTube https://www.bitchute.com/video/Xt1XGwiHBdSo/ I have verified what was stated by him by looking up the studies he references in the video and you can do the same. I have posted longer videos with Dr McCullough that have charts and detail of supporting data and research if you take the time to watch.

Here is another video that was censored off YouTube, Facebook & Twitter in July 2020 https://www.bitchute.com/video/9dcyyRtkQdgU/ THE CENSORED DC AMERICA'S FRONTLINE DOCTOR VIDEO | HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE
bloobs wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:00 am
evilanne wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:19 am There are now research studies that show that HCQ, Ivermectin and Budesonide are effective in treatment protocols although Fauci and MSM railed against them all last year.
Please cite sources. I will study.
Somehow I doubt you will study anything as information has already been provided within this thread. In the original post that you found the need to derail go to the link Budesonide Works https://budesonideworks.com/ and click on the Oxford University (randomized control trial) link. I posted this video link September 20th https://rumble.com/vlnjp3-dr.-richard-b ... nd-co.html The first part shows clips from mid 2020 when the Dr Bartlett brought his method of treatment forward and how it was reported in MSM.

You never did answer my question to you
So if you or someone you care about comes down with COVID, whether or not fully vaccinated, and need to go to the hospital for treatment, are you going to let them give you/them Remdesivir or Ivermectin? (Both are approved for COVID treatment, although many hospitals will not offer you the option)
Since you have difficulty with research, here is a link to support my last statement: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines. ... /table-2e/ I presume you won't need too question the National Institute oof Health.

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by bloobs »

Well Aitrus et al., I tried to seek common ground. But I guess Acid"s prophecy (wish?) of a civil war will be inevitable. SMH.

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by evilanne »

Don't give up so easily. Once you do your research, you can join us in the revolution to take back our freedoms that have been slowly taken away over time.

P.S. Ivermectin isn't only for Horses
https://swprs.org/ivermectin-and-more-on-remdesivir/
https://cv19.fr/2020/11/16/ivermectine- ... emdesivir/

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by bloobs »

evilanne wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:47 am Don't give up so easily. Once you do your research, you can join us in the revolution to take back our freedoms that have been slowly taken away over time.

P.S. Ivermectin isn't only for Horses
https://swprs.org/ivermectin-and-more-on-remdesivir/
https://cv19.fr/2020/11/16/ivermectine- ... emdesivir/
Thanks but no thanks on joining your "revolution" and the horse medicine.

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by acidfly »

You guys are wasting your time. Certain individuals have been so brainwashed by the media and government double speak they think in feelings (hence horse medicine) instead of simply saying medicine that's been used for millions around the world for many many years, but yet these same people will line up to get an untested emergency use only vaccine.

You cannot change a person's feeling on a subject, it's like trying to prove there is no God to a religious man. We have posted fact and study after study, I'm sure they weren't looked at once and if they were they were read with such bias that nothing would be believed.

Even as the truth comes out that Fauci lied to congress and this was a gain of function experiment that leaked from China those same people will not accept it. These are the people that still believe in the Russian collusion story and think that we are better today than we were with Trump.
Last edited by acidfly on Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by evilanne »

You are probably right acidfy. Hopefully most rational people will opt for the medication that is less likely to kill you.
Image

KTSPcalc
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by KTSPcalc »

acidfly wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:59 pm
You cannot change a person's feeling on a subject, it's like trying to prove there is no God to a religious man. We have posted fact and study after study, I'm sure they weren't looked at once and if they were they were read with such bias that nothing would be believed.
I read this and chuckled - because it is exactly how I (and I imagine the other pro-vax folks here) feel about the anti-mandate and anti-vax forum-ers. I think there is close to zero chance that we will change each other's minds.

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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by bloobs »

KTSPcalc wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:08 am
acidfly wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:59 pm
You cannot change a person's feeling on a subject, it's like trying to prove there is no God to a religious man. We have posted fact and study after study, I'm sure they weren't looked at once and if they were they were read with such bias that nothing would be believed.
I read this and chuckled - because it is exactly how I (and I imagine the other pro-vax folks here) feel about the anti-mandate and anti-vax forum-ers. I think there is close to zero chance that we will change each other's minds.
KTS
I think the root cause of the pro versus anti Vax stance is thus:

The former values the information coming from scientific sources, where it undergoes rigorous experimentation and vetting, whether it be a expert private medical or (gasp!) governmental entity.

On the other hand, the latter places their trust with pseudoscientific sources, as long as it's inferences matches their predetermined/deeply-rooted biases. Their personal "research" only considers information that always confirms their beliefs while disregarding equally plausible explanations. And since scientifically derived sources have not validated their non scientific beliefs, they look for it under any rock and crevice that offers it--and pass that on as absolute truths, never to be superseded ever since. Why? Because to be perceived as 'right' is much more important to them than to discover new knowledge and thrive from it. The ego must be served.

I confirmed this when I asked evil if she believed the Covid vaccine is NOT 100% effective and she still replied NO....even though that has been HER main assertion in this thread. LOL. Only she must be the one to
declare that, but not her online "enemy".

Have a nice weekend, the sun just came out finally where I am!
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

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I said earlier in the thread that I can see both sides of this debate. I've received PMs and emails (both supporting me as well as mistaking my intent / questioning my motivations), so I think I'd better explain what I mean. You all know how long-winded I can be, so I apologize ahead of time for this novel. TL:DR is at the bottom.

This is not a black-and-white zero-sum game. Both sides have good points to be made, but they're going about it badly.

Insulting the intelligence and/or motivations of the other side does nobody any good. Offering "compromise" statements that aren't really compromises (then acting offended / disappointed when they aren't accepted) doesn't do any good either. Approaching the conversation with the attitude of "the other side must agree with me or they're proving themselves to be morally and ethically corrupt / inferior / stupid" doesn't convert anybody, change anybody's mind, or prove anything beyond showing your own personal biases. Immediately dismissing information presented by the other side simply because it's from a source that I don't trust, that I think is biased, or simply because it was the other side who presented it also doesn't do anything helpful.

During this grand social discussion that the world is having, each side thinks the other is engaging in Goebbels' approach of repeating lies often enough that they become truth - and in a way, both sides are right on that perspective. Both sides are citing data to support their own claims and refusing to acknowledge the data the other side presents. Both sides say that the other side's data can't be trusted - and to a certain extent, they are right. Not completely, but not incompletely either. Both sides purport to present scientifically-sourced data, but there's no way to tell if those sources are biased, lying for their own reasons, or are genuinely academic and present all the pertinent information necessary to make a fully informed opinion. There's no rule that says that scientists are automatically unbiased, and there's no rule saying that non-scientists can't use common-sense to identify facts. Truth doesn't always come from science because scientists are human, but truth doesn't always come from moral outrage either. But that doesn't mean that scientists and moralists can be dismissed out of hand either. They need each other to balance out the perspectives.

One don't have to be educated to be intelligent, and just because one is educated doesn't mean they are correct or have a more valid claim on what is "truth".

The problem that has been developing over the last few decades is that there has been so much deception on the part of media, politicians, businesses, "experts", and in social media that we can't really tell who is telling the truth anymore. Thus, we don't know which information to give proper weight when forming our opinions, and we don't know which information to dismiss due to being questionable. Bloobs may well be telling the truth, and evilanne may be telling the truth also. And they probably are - they appear to be genuinely fervent and sincere in their stated positions, and both provide data to back up their views. But there's no way to know the veracity of their sources.

It all comes down to worldview.

For those on evilanne's side: The scientific studies produced by the CDC, FDA, WHO, and others are viewed as suspect because they've seen credible data that undermines those reports, advisory memos, and media interviews - including questionable ethics by those doing the studies. They know that when information is constantly one sided with no room for disagreement or discussion, there's something missing because there's no such thing as absolute consensus in science - yet that's all they are getting from media, politicians, and the medical community at large. They may well feel that it's a step further toward authoritarianism, and those in power are using science, a "medical emergency", and fear as the means by which power is increased and freedom is further restricted (perhaps along with other dynamic social changes such as "woke" culture, etc). They feel like they are being ignored, told to shut up, and conform to a government and wider society they feel doesn't have their best interests at heart. Thus, they resist - or are at least skeptical and concerned. They search for other data to confirm or rebut the information produced by the CDC, FDA, and WHO. For confirmation of the data, all they find are sources that parrot the same talking points, adding nothing new to the conversation.

However, for rebuttal of the CDC, FDA, and WHO, they find ample information that isn't even acknowledged or discussed by those in control (politicians, experts, media, et al) except in dismissive and insulting terms. The rebuttal information appears credible and logical, and so they wonder why the CDC, FDA, and WHO don't take this data into consideration. To those on evilanne's side, the collective effect appears to be a snow job: an intense effort at propaganda, persuasion, and/or deception - especially when coupled to infringe on what they feel are most important: their rights and freedoms. They know that this approach is what past authoritarian regimes did, and because they don't want it to happen in America they put up their defenses and resist. The agree with Thomas Sowell when he says "In the schools and colleges, the intelligentsia have changed the role of education from equipping students with the knowledge and intellectual skills to weigh issues and make up their own minds into a process of indoctrination with the conclusions already reached by the anointed." and "If facts, logic, and scientific procedures are all just arbitrarily 'socially constructed' notions, then all that is left is consensus - more specifically peer consensus, the kind of consensus that matters to adolescents or to a many among the intelligentsia." Their fear motivation: they fear being ruled over by people who they didn't vote for, thus they are on the brink of revoking their consent to be governed by those in charge.

For those on bloobs' side: The scientific studies produced by the CDC, FDA, and WHO are trusted because that's where the acknowledged experts reside. They trust the data by default until conclusively proven otherwise because have a hard time imagining that anybody in those agencies - presumably all scientists and medical professionals sworn to do no harm - have anything else in mind beyond helping people during this crisis. Anybody in those agencies who would have nefarious designs or character flaws would have long ago been weeded out of the system (for the most part). and those few bad apples who remain are easily overridden by the abundance of good apples that surround them. Thus, their data is trustworthy and deserves the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

Up to this point, they don't feel that the data presented by the other side is credible, and therefore the CDC, FDA, and WHO narrative has not been disproven. They may feel that it will take somebody from within that community - and not just one individual, but many individuals, and backed up by media and other authority figures - to disprove the established narrative. They feel that anybody outside the circle of acknowledged experts is not authoritative, therefore their data and science is immediately suspect. This is because if they were legitimate sources, then they would already be included in the circle of experts. And if the circle of experts didn't include the data, it's because they looked at it and found it to be suspect. And if the circle of experts dismissed it, then it's right for those on bloobs' side to dismiss it as well. They may well feel that those who resist are easily led astray by poor critical thinking skills, poor education, or by emotional thinking brought about by placing morals above scientific truth, or are simply being selfish. Their fear motivation: they fear that their life and nation will continue to be disrupted by those who disagree with the accepted and approved consensus, and place them in physical danger through their actions (or lack of actions - i.e. no mask wearing, no vaccines, etc.).

I may or may not have all particulars of each side nailed down, but I think that I've captured some significant portion of what each side may be dealing with - consciously or unconsciously.

The result in our society on this topic - as well as a great many others - is that we don't know how to talk to each other and agree to disagree anymore. We see it as a zero-sum game, where winner take all and losing the debate means losing just a bit more of one's preferred way of life and cherished ideals.

Coming to a compromise is a negotiation, not a one-time token gesture. One doesn't offer a compromise with a take-it-or-leave-it attitude, because that's not a compromise - it's an ultimatum. I think that the biggest problem in society is that we don't know how to compromise anymore. It's true that compromise isn't always possible, but with COVID and the vaccines I think there is. We've lost the ability to recognize when it's time to compromise (the COVID vaccine) and when it's not time to compromise. Everybody thinks that their position, moral values, and goals are not subject to compromise (and it partially explains why the divorce rate is high as well).

Examples of each side being unwilling to compromise:
Left unwilling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfVonCvvC04
Right unwilling (pertinent portion starts at about 3:20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICxKmCjF-4

TL:DR - In my view, both sides (not just here, but in society in general) are approaching this whole thing badly. One side has learned to trust the conclusions reached by authority and experts without question, and the other side has learned to not trust authority and experts in any meaningful way. Both sides have reached a point where the only compromise they will consider is that which favors 90% of their side, and thus isn't really a compromise at all.
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bloobs
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by bloobs »

Fair enough 👍

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evilanne
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Re: Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

Post by evilanne »

bloobs wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:15 pm I confirmed this when I asked evil if she believed the Covid vaccine is NOT 100% effective and she still replied NO....even though that has been HER main assertion in this thread. LOL. Only she must be the one to
declare that, but not her online "enemy".
Where exactly did you ask this? You are going to have to show me where I can find this because the only questions I recall specifically saying No to you was your proposed statement of agreement where you claimed the vaccine was mostly effective and your assumption that there was herd immunity for >65 age group. Correct me if I'm wrong or take responsibility for your misstatement.

Bloobs, you aren't my enemy...If you were, I would want you to take Remdesivir (the one in the Ebola study Fauci was involved with that had to be stopped early because 53% of the participants died) rather than Ivermectin that has long term safety studies and has been listed on the WHO's list of essential medicines for many years. They shortened the treatment period in other studies but some participants in those had to stop early due to renal issues/failure also.

I have actually posted quite a few research studies and information from medical providers that actually treat patients and have medical knowledge. What have you posted in support of your position other than your personal interpretation of the data set or attacking what others post. I gave you the NIH link that shows where Ivermectin is approved for treatment of COVID 19 but you said no thanks to the "Horse Medicine" showing that you are more influenced by MSM & Social Media than by any scientific information or studies.

Put on your thinking cap and tell me why would Dr Fauci select the medicine that had the worse outcome in the Ebola study as the only EAU anti-viral for COVID in hospitals in 2020? The only logical reasons I can come up with is he has some financial interest or it was to increase the death rate, increase the pandemic fear and ultimately promote the vaccines. The Swiss, French & other countries have decided independently against using Remdesivir but Fauci claims it is "safe & effective," just like the vaccines.

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