Executive Order on Requiring Coronavirus Disease 2019 Vaccination for Federal Employees

[katcat]

1) It's not your "duty" as a Federal Employee to allow the government to decide what goes into your body.
2) It is your CIVIC duty to oppose Government over-reach.

Finally a breath of reason!

[PhilJohn]

1) It's not your "duty" as a Federal Employee to allow the government to decide what goes into your body.
2) It is your CIVIC duty to oppose Government over-reach.

Finally a breath of reason!

I'm just tired of it. "It's your duty as a Government Employee". Laughable. I mean who thinks that way? It's your duty as a GS-8,9 whatever to be forced in doing something your not even sure is safe for you, but if you're a White House staffer you are exempt? The world is getting more dumb by the second.

[haywoodkb]

In the State of Georgia, for every vaccinated person who died, there were 23 unvaccinated people who died.

How many of those were after the vaccine became widely available? There was no vaccine for the first 8 months of this mess.

This data is from the current year, 2021 only.

[Aitrus]

First, I'm glad that we've avoided partisan political bashing (for the most part) thus far. I'd like to keep it that way if possible. We don't need this place to devolve into Twitter.

Here's my take on the issue (speaking for myself and not for TSPCenter or anybody / anything else): I am pro-vaccines in general, but anti-mandate. Here's my rationale for this stance:

There are many good reasons to take the vaccine, many good reasons to refuse it, and many good reasons to be cautious and skeptical about it. Each person's situation is different, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Nothing in the Constitution gives the Federal government the power to exceed its authority just because there is an emergency. The Supreme Court has ruled that State governments can mandate a vaccine and require a fine be paid if the person doesn't do so (Jacobson v. Massachusetts), but has not ruled thusly for the Federal level of government. Keep in mind that a fine is different than being sent to jail for failure to comply, and it's different than losing one's job for failure to comply as well.

While the evidence suggests that COVID is now endemic, it is not as deadly as the media and medical authorities make it seem. By the CDC's own numbers, fewer than 1% of people in the US who get COVID die from it. Compare that to the mortality rates of smallpox (30%); measles, mumps, and rubella (10 - 30%, depending on country); or polio (2-5% for children, 15-30% for adolescents and adults) - all of which are diseases for which long-tested and proven vaccinations are understandably mandatory for various segments of the population (the military, etc.).

In addition, the CDC changed its cause of death guidelines for doctors and coroners in March 2020. This change drove the reported mortality rate of COVID dramatically upward as compared to what the result would have been if the older guidelines - which had been used for decades - had been used instead.

To me, all this means that while there is precedent for States mandating vaccinations, it's not necessary in the case of COVID, nor does the Federal government have the authority to do so. As with virtually all medical matters, government at any level has no authority allowing it to mandate any specific medical decision, except in extreme cases. And going by the numbers, COVID is not such a case. It is endemic, yes, but so is the seasonal flu, HPV, and cold sores (herpes simplex). All of them can cause death in people for various reasons (poor immune system, comorbidities, untreated cases allowed to fester out of control, bad family genetics, simply catching the illness at an old age, etc.). Yet the government doesn't mandate any medical decisions for those issues, and it would be a dangerous step down a road none of us want were it to do so, I think.

While I feel saddened at the experiences of those who have seen co-workers and loved ones affected by COVID, I have been fortunate enough to not experience this. Nobody I know has died from COVID, although I know of several people who have had mild cases of it. I work on a military installation, so the general health of the people I'm around may have something to do with it.

That said, I try to keep in mind that anecdotal evidence is just that: anecdotal. I try to remember that none of us get out of life alive. While any loss of life is indeed tragic, it's also inevitable that we all will reach our end at some point, and we never know what will cause anybody's particular demise. For example, a stage-4 cancer patient may get hit by a bus on the way to the hospital for treatment, thus dying from heavy metal poisioning rather than cancer. Life is a mystery novel, and we don't get the option of peeking at the last page to see whodunnit.

The spectre of death, the hyperventilation and pearl-clutching of the media and celebrities, and the ostentatious pomposity of government figures have all served to do one thing: generate fear among the populace. It's this fear that is driving mandates and social pressure to conform. It's also created a lot of clicks for the media and has grown the coffers of the pharmaceutical industry.

I firmly believe that - in the end - it's each person's private medical choice. I don't advocate for or against the COVID shot. I'm following the Golden and Silver rules: I treat others as I wish to be treated (Golden), and I don't treat others the way I don't want to be treated (Silver). I am simply against the heavy hand of government making medical decisions for private people, and I'm against people haranguing each other to either take the shot or refrain from taking it.

As a government employee, my first duty is to protect the rights of the citizens, not to be their Mary Poppins and encourage them to take a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. Their medical decision is no business of mine, nor would I want my medical decision to be any business of theirs.

[PhilJohn]

Well said Aitrus.

[evilanne]

I am so glad I was already retired when COVID hit.

I don't recall anything like what Bloobs is saying when I became a DoD Civilian, but I do recall the Oath of Office

"I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the Constitution of the
United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that
I take this obligation freely, without any mental
reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well; and
faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am
about to enter. So help me God (optional)."

--It is not lawful or constitutional to mandate an emergency authorized use vaccination (which should have never been approved in the first place as there are several other therapeutic)
--Looking at the data https://vaers.hhs.gov/ for 2021, there are over 500K reported adverse events including bell palsy, auto-immune disorders, heart attacks, odd clotting problems, heart inflammation in healthy teens and death. VAERS only captures a small percentage of the actual reactions as many are not reported.
See also https://luis46pr.wordpress.com/2021/08/ ... ase-death/
--There will definitely be lawsuits coming if not more serious charges

[Tomanyiron]

[Optimus187]

First, I'm glad that we've avoided partisan political bashing (for the most part) thus far. I'd like to keep it that way if possible. We don't need this place to devolve into Twitter.

Here's my take on the issue (speaking for myself and not for TSPCenter or anybody / anything else): I am pro-vaccines in general, but anti-mandate. Here's my rationale for this stance:

There are many good reasons to take the vaccine, many good reasons to refuse it, and many good reasons to be cautious and skeptical about it. Each person's situation is different, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Nothing in the Constitution gives the Federal government the power to exceed its authority just because there is an emergency. The Supreme Court has ruled that State governments can mandate a vaccine and require a fine be paid if the person doesn't do so (Jacobson v. Massachusetts), but has not ruled thusly for the Federal level of government. Keep in mind that a fine is different than being sent to jail for failure to comply, and it's different than losing one's job for failure to comply as well.

While the evidence suggests that COVID is now endemic, it is not as deadly as the media and medical authorities make it seem. By the CDC's own numbers, fewer than 1% of people in the US who get COVID die from it. Compare that to the mortality rates of smallpox (30%); measles, mumps, and rubella (10 - 30%, depending on country); or polio (2-5% for children, 15-30% for adolescents and adults) - all of which are diseases for which long-tested and proven vaccinations are understandably mandatory for various segments of the population (the military, etc.).

In addition, the CDC changed its cause of death guidelines for doctors and coroners in March 2020. This change drove the reported mortality rate of COVID dramatically upward as compared to what the result would have been if the older guidelines - which had been used for decades - had been used instead.

To me, all this means that while there is precedent for States mandating vaccinations, it's not necessary in the case of COVID, nor does the Federal government have the authority to do so. As with virtually all medical matters, government at any level has no authority allowing it to mandate any specific medical decision, except in extreme cases. And going by the numbers, COVID is not such a case. It is endemic, yes, but so is the seasonal flu, HPV, and cold sores (herpes simplex). All of them can cause death in people for various reasons (poor immune system, comorbidities, untreated cases allowed to fester out of control, bad family genetics, simply catching the illness at an old age, etc.). Yet the government doesn't mandate any medical decisions for those issues, and it would be a dangerous step down a road none of us want were it to do so, I think.

While I feel saddened at the experiences of those who have seen co-workers and loved ones affected by COVID, I have been fortunate enough to not experience this. Nobody I know has died from COVID, although I know of several people who have had mild cases of it. I work on a military installation, so the general health of the people I'm around may have something to do with it.

That said, I try to keep in mind that anecdotal evidence is just that: anecdotal. I try to remember that none of us get out of life alive. While any loss of life is indeed tragic, it's also inevitable that we all will reach our end at some point, and we never know what will cause anybody's particular demise. For example, a stage-4 cancer patient may get hit by a bus on the way to the hospital for treatment, thus dying from heavy metal poisioning rather than cancer. Life is a mystery novel, and we don't get the option of peeking at the last page to see whodunnit.

The spectre of death, the hyperventilation and pearl-clutching of the media and celebrities, and the ostentatious pomposity of government figures have all served to do one thing: generate fear among the populace. It's this fear that is driving mandates and social pressure to conform. It's also created a lot of clicks for the media and has grown the coffers of the pharmaceutical industry.

I firmly believe that - in the end - it's each person's private medical choice. I don't advocate for or against the COVID shot. I'm following the Golden and Silver rules: I treat others as I wish to be treated (Golden), and I don't treat others the way I don't want to be treated (Silver). I am simply against the heavy hand of government making medical decisions for private people, and I'm against people haranguing each other to either take the shot or refrain from taking it.

As a government employee, my first duty is to protect the rights of the citizens, not to be their Mary Poppins and encourage them to take a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. Their medical decision is no business of mine, nor would I want my medical decision to be any business of theirs.

Wow! Logic on a site dedicated to making money. What a concept.

Well, said Aitrus

[Optimus187]

I am so glad I was already retired when COVID hit.

I don't recall anything like what Bloobs is saying when I became a DoD Civilian, but I do recall the Oath of Office

"I, (state your full name), do solemnly swear (or affirm)
that I will support and defend the Constitution of the
United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that
I take this obligation freely, without any mental
reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well; and
faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am
about to enter. So help me God (optional)."

--It is not lawful or constitutional to mandate an emergency authorized use vaccination (which should have never been approved in the first place as there are several other therapeutic)
--Looking at the data https://vaers.hhs.gov/ for 2021, there are over 500K reported adverse events including bell palsy, auto-immune disorders, heart attacks, odd clotting problems, heart inflammation in healthy teens and death. VAERS only captures a small percentage of the actual reactions as many are not reported.
See also https://luis46pr.wordpress.com/2021/08/ ... ase-death/
--There will definitely be lawsuits coming if not more serious charges

It was on the social media disclaimer fine print.

" You will do anything we tell you, especially for likes, subs, and shares"

[RugbyLarry]

Like many others here, I am a military vet. I served for almost 21 yrs before becoming a fed. In those years I took many different vaccines/medication because I was told to do so. Flu, anthrax, yellow fever, typhiod, small pox, chloroquine, and who knows what they blasted into my arms with those jet vax guns at basic training. I'm not anti-vaccine.

That said, I have not taken a flu shot since retiring 15 years ago. I've never had the flu. I can't remember the last time I had anything beyond a little 24 hr bug.

I'm a young, strong and fit 55 years old. I exercise regularly and get plenty of sunshine. I don't smoke and usually keep the alcohol consumption down to moderate levels.

I'm not afraid of the vaccine, but I'm not afraid of the disease either. I also don't believe the fed govt has the right to force me, just because they sign my checks.

I have 5 yrs left until I hit my 20, and about 16 months until I hit MRA. I work from home and have no real requirement to ever do otherwise.

I'll ultimately take the vaccine if it comes down to it, but as of right now I am resisting simply on principle.

[23V23C]

I'm good with the Executive order. I remember going to elementary school and my folks having to prove I had my shots. Mumps, measles, polio, tetanus, rubella, chickenpox, diphtheria,...etc. I've had many more while I was in the military to include anthrax and now I have the Covid shots. I'd like to say I have a very health immune system but this virus does not discriminate.

[PhilJohn]

I'm good with the Executive order. I remember going to elementary school and my folks having to prove I had my shots. Mumps, measles, polio, tetanus, rubella, chickenpox, diphtheria,...etc. I've had many more while I was in the military to include anthrax and now I have the Covid shots. I'd like to say I have a very health immune system but this virus does not discriminate.

I too was forced to take the anthrax series. I get military disability payments from the side effects I suffer from it, along with a number of people I served with. Maybe thats why the courts banned it back in 2004.

[evilanne]

I never had the Mumps vaccine because I had the Mumps. Why is it that they are promoting the shot for those that had COVID when natural immunity is better? Seems like like are throwing out long held rules of immunology on the experimental "vaccines" that don't prevent you from getting COVID.

Unfortunately they have used the military as guinea pigs for vaccines like Anthrax. Sorry to hear you had an adverse reaction PhilJohn. The military mandated it in 1998 and it took until 2004 to suspend vaccinations but then they proceeded with the anthrax vaccine again in 2005.

3The military suspended the use of the anthrax vaccine in October 2004, in response to a court order
that expressed concern regarding the administrative process by which the Food and Drug
Administration (FDA) approved the vaccine for its use. The court subsequently modified this order,
which allowed the military to begin to offer the anthrax vaccine on a voluntary basis in April 2005. In
December of 2005, FDA determined that the vaccine protected against all routes of exposure to
anthrax spores, including inhalation. In October 2006, after the court order had expired, DOD
announced that it was resuming mandatory vaccination for certain personnel and issued a
memorandum that designated which personnel would be required to receive the immunization and
which service members would be eligible to receive it on a voluntary basis."
--https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-07-787r.pdf

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspec ... ilots-quit
Seems like both civilians and military are more compliant these days with the COVID mandates.

[mjedlin66]

I don't support mandates either, in general.

But does an employer not have the right to stipulate conditions of employment?

I think a lot of people who are upset about this mandate would not be upset if it was any other employer making a rule for their employees.

[Aitrus]

I don't support mandates either, in general.

But does an employer not have the right to stipulate conditions of employment?

I think a lot of people who are upset about this mandate would not be upset if it was any other employer making a rule for their employees.

To a certain extent, I agree. Employers do have the right to stipulate some conditions of employment. Things such as work hours, required education level or experience, certain amount of physical capability (police, firefighters, etc.), maintaining certain certifications or certain amount of annual ongoing education (medical field, teachers), etc.

However, I disagree if its something that is a personal medical decision. To me, this violates the concept of bodily autonomy and privacy. Under the Constitution and our representative form of government, the rights of the minority cannot be usurped by the will / needs of the majority unless there is an overwhelming necessity. The individual is the ultimate minority.

The draft in times of war when the safety of the nation is at stake is one example of a justifiable act on the part of society to force the individual into an action they would otherwise not choose (to enter into military service). On the other end of the spectrum, the government can't mandate that people with an STD rerain from having sexual relations, even though doing so would be in the best interest of the population's health as a whole.

In my post above, I outlined why I don't think that the COVID epidemic rises to the level of justified mandates. Some agree with my perspective, some are on the fence, and some believe that government should have near-total control. I've spoken to some who believe that the government has wider authority in the role of "employer" than that of "government" in terms of establishing work conditions. Others believe that the government is prevented - via the Constitution - from establishing certain work conditions that would otherwise be acceptable if private business owners were to do it.

It's an important social conversation that our country - and others - is having. Where do we draw the line with government authority over private medical decisions?