Looking for comparable ETFs

Managing your TSP and alternate investment options after retirement or separation from service.

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maxbobcat
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by maxbobcat »

crondanet5 wrote:Both Fidelity and Merrill have accused me of being a day trader. I told them they never refused my commission. Call me a nimble trader.

But I do want to find ETFs as cheap as the TSP share prices to put idle cash into. So far you guys have not come through. I hope you give your bosses better replies to their questions.
Until then, I believe the TSP share prices are rigged and we are not getting the returns/value we should be getting. Disprove me. Show me the ETFs.


http://etfdb.com/index/sp-500-index/

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ArrieS
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by ArrieS »

crondanet5 wrote:Until then, I believe the TSP share prices are rigged and we are not getting the returns/value we should be getting. Disprove me. Show me the ETFs.


I don't have to show you the ETF. You have a gross misunderstanding of price and share number relation to the market. I really just have to show you you're wrong about the returns, that would by default disprove your statement

January 02, 2015 C fund share price $27.1599, December 31, 2015 C fund share price $27.5622.

((27.5622-27.1655)/27.1655=0.0148 or 1.48% return for 2015.

According to this article http://seekingalpha.com/article/3786046-2015-s-and-p-500-return,

"...if you include dividend reinvestment, the 2015 S&P 500 Return was actually 1.19%..."

Everyone call your congressional representative crondanet5 was right!!!!!

crondanet5 wrote:...we are not getting the returns/value we should be getting...


Because if the S&P index is the measurement, we beat it!!!! We should have received a lower return than we did. We aren't getting the returns we should be!!!!! OH THE HUMANITY!
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

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evilanne
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by evilanne »

LOL ArrieS is right and crondanet should stick with mutual funds where he won't have to worry about share prices.

crondanet5
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by crondanet5 »

Don't be silly.

The question still remains how TSP C Fund share price can hover around $29.50 and the Blackrock IVV ETF for C Fund is $217. How do they get a $29 price?

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ArrieS
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by ArrieS »

crondanet5 wrote:Don't be silly.

The question still remains how TSP C Fund share price can hover around $29.50 and the Blackrock IVV ETF for C Fund is $217. How do they get a $29 price?


Because the ETF is not the Mutual fund.

Let's say both had assets of $1 billion dollars. ETFs like high prices so they issue 5,000,000 million shares priced at $200.

Mutual fund wants a lower price to be attractive to buyers, so they issue 50,000,000 shares.

Of course this isn't a perfect world and the assets are not a nice round number and neither are the shares outstanding.

Also, it's very important to remember that the TSP doesn't pay out dividends, those are retained in the price. ETFs pay out dividends.
Last edited by ArrieS on Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

skiehawk11
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by skiehawk11 »

cron, like anything it depends on the starting price and amount of shares combined with stock splits, dividends, fees, etc, etc. Not sure what you're so confused about?

Arries has a solid explanation IMO.

crondanet5
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by crondanet5 »

It also depends on what stocks are held in the mutual fund. So what I am saying is that Blackrock's mutual funds are very selective in the stocks in that fund and the fund in fact does not inclusively represent the S&P500 or DWCPF. If it included all of the stocks in these markets the share prices would look like IVV's share price. IMHO.

BTW, today the nimble trader transacted another market trade. Not boasting, just backing up what I said I did.

_____________________________________________
In cash at night, sleep tight

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ArrieS
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by ArrieS »

crondanet5 wrote:So what I am saying is that Blackrock's mutual funds are very selective in the stocks in that fund and the fund in fact does not inclusively represent the S&P500 or DWCPF.


Can you show me where you found this out? Because if they didn't replicate as closely as possible the S&P, they would be in violation of regulations and laws since they claim that's what they're doing. Plus, lord knows what extra trouble since this is the Federal Government's retirement plan.


Plus,

crondanet5 wrote:If it included all of the stocks in these markets the share prices would look like IVV's share price.


You're forgetting to include dividends in your statement since those are retained by the fund and the ETF pays them out.
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

crondanet5
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by crondanet5 »

I stake my claim on the share price of IVV versus the share price of the C Fund. How can there be such a difference between the 2 share prices? are they not both reflecting the closing value of the S^P500? If so, why is there such a disparity?

ngood2345
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by ngood2345 »

ETF's.
Yes, buy in the morning sell in the afternoon.

AGG - F fund
VOO - C fund
SCHB - S fund. This is the NEW S fund the old one was VXF.
EFA - I fund. I like VGK, lower fees and higher dividends.

I like the most of these because of the low fees, 0.03%+. You can buy these anywhere TD Ameritrade, Scottrade, Schrab...

My opinion only, please be careful with Blackrock. I had them before and was very unhappy.

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evilanne
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by evilanne »

Originally, you contributed money to TSP and it went into the designated fund as specific dollar amount, so you only had dollar amount in each fund. Statements were done on a monthly/quarterly basis with gains/losses, added/subtracted When they introduced the S & I Funds, they went to share prices.

All of the share prices were initially set at $10 per share based on closing prices 30 May 2003 (all accounts were converted over the weekend). So the balance in each fund in your account was divided by $10 share price to determine the number of shares--that is why share prices only go back to 2 Jun 2003. The $10 share price was the number they chose for whatever reason (could have been any number FRTIB decided upon)

IVV on the other hand goes back to May 19, 2000. Closing prices for S&P 500 and IVV are below for that day, reflecting that shares started at 10% of index value:
S&P 1,406.95
IVV 140.69

How can there be such a difference between the 2 share prices?

EFT pays out dividends, TSP does not--they are basically reinvested.

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ArrieS
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Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by ArrieS »

Also....

Just to throw it out there, the S&P dividend is about 2%. Just a rough calculation from 2003 using 2%, 1.02^13=1.293606 or 29.36% return.

217/10= 21.70, 21.70*1.2936=28.07.

So that's a rough estimate that helps get to $29. Consider a lot of companies cut their dividend during the great recession.

I'm using 2% from now so it could have been higher on average historically in the past.

Plus, this doesn't really handle quarterly compounding since the ETFs pay dividends quarterly instead of annually.

On a side note, damn you Netflix!
OCTOBER: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks in. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August, and February. - Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

Wazzu82
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:13 pm

Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by Wazzu82 »

crondanet,

If you search around for the over 20 TSP subscription websites that set up strategies to mimic the TSP funds for trading outside of the TSP, the most commonly used funds are:

C fund - SPY or VOO (and with some brokers, like Ameritrade, VOO and other Vanguard ETFs are commission free if you hold them for 30 days...but I see you're talking about day trading...I've never heard of limits on trading ETFs, and I was also labeled a "pattern day trader" when I recently exceeded the limit of 3 day trades in 5 days. As long as I maintain a balance over $25K it doesn't matter at all though.

S fund - VXF

F fund - AGG

I fund - EFA, but I prefer IEFA since it holds more mid- and small-cap stocks and does slightly better than EFA over the long haul.

I don't understand your comments about the TSP funds being a sham. Can't help you with that. The fund prices started at $10.00 back in 2003 or whenever, and are adjusted daily to track the indexes they track, plus dividends, and minus the small fees. ETFs have slightly higher fees so in the long run the ETFs will not do as well as you'd do in the TSP, but you do have more freedom trading ETFs of course, even day trading if that's your thing. I use QQQ options for day trading and after 15 years of doing it am finally getting the hang of it, maybe, it's not an easy game and you can be wiped out fast getting too greedy.

crondanet5
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Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:51 pm

Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by crondanet5 »

So the TSP Funds are based on indexes and not funds or ETFs. That explains a lot. Are you trading a thousand shares a day?

skiehawk11
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Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:32 pm

Re: Looking for comparable ETFs

Post by skiehawk11 »

Cron,

if the TSP funds are a sham, I want it! See the price comparisons below:
https://www.tsp.gov/InvestmentFunds/Fun ... _Perf.html

Essentially, the TSP funds beat the funds they attempt to replicate **after** fees. That's impressive.

As to how that happens, it has everything to do with how the fund is managed. This could include management buying and selling options of the S&P 500 index or other underlying index in order to successfully replicate the index. This is on top of the individual stocks the TSP owns.

Verbatim from tsp.gov:

C Fund Investments—The C Fund is invested in a separate account that is managed by BlackRock Institutional
Trust Company, N.A. The C Fund holds all the stocks included in the S&P 500 Index in virtually the same
weights that they have in the index. The performance of the C Fund is evaluated on the basis of how closely its returns match those of the S&P 500 Index. A portion of the C Fund assets is reserved to meet the needs of daily participant activity. This liquidity reserve is invested in S&P 500 Index futures contracts.

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Fund Prices2021-04-16

FundPriceDayYTD
G $16.56 0.00% 0.34%
F $20.66 -0.21% -2.53%
C $62.57 0.36% 11.92%
S $83.28 -0.04% 12.24%
I $38.19 0.63% 7.92%
L2065 $13.71 0.39% 10.49%
L2060 $13.71 0.39% 10.49%
L2055 $13.71 0.39% 10.49%
L2050 $27.99 0.31% 8.45%
L2045 $12.79 0.29% 7.92%
L2040 $46.72 0.27% 7.42%
L2035 $12.36 0.25% 6.82%
L2030 $41.20 0.23% 6.25%
L2025 $11.71 0.18% 4.93%
Linc $22.82 0.08% 2.45%

Pending Allocations

Under development. For now, you may view Pending Allocations by going to "fantasy TSP" and selecting "Leaderboard sort" of "Pending Allocations".

What else

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