The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

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tspwizard1
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by tspwizard1 »

SnareMV17 wrote:What a horribly trashy article. Of course you would expect this from CNN’s site. First of all, there’s a reason that depreciation exists, and it’s mainly because investment properties generally have a limited useable lifetime where they will need to be replaced. They don’t last forever without major upgrading or alterations. Depreciating the value simply allows the owner to recoup those costs over time instead of all at once. But yes, it’s one of the reasons that buying actual real property as an investment is superior to tinkering in the stock market or many other investments.

I don’t buy he 1% garbage either. These leftists sure do love to drive home that ridiculous number. Do you realize that many of the users of this site are in the 1%? It doesn’t take much to save and invest your money over a career or lifetime and end up a millionaire, either. This is truly pathetic. Hey, let’s vilify people who purchase actual physical things that are useful and provide them to people who couldn’t afford to purchase it on their own. Because that’s such a terrible, awful thing, right? The changes made will really only affect the super rich who have huge portfolios, yes. Or have huge properties with several doors. I own two properties and this wouldn’t even come close to making a lick of difference to me.

So instead of vilifying real estate investors, why not just become one? Do you really think that maxing out your TSP is the only way to have a comfortable retirement? You could be buying property and enjoying the tax benefits of owning a physical, useable thing, also. And heck, interest rates are crazy low right now.
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Sauktim
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by Sauktim »

A classic case of the golden rule.....he who has the gold makes the rules...

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Aitrus
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by Aitrus »

mjedlin66 wrote:
Aitrus wrote:I don't disagree with you on that point, MJ. Yes, some people do need help from time to time - and I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't become their lifestyle.

What I was disagreeing with sonofnthing's post was the part where he insinuates that government corners people, gets them on welfare, and keeps them there. While I can agree that a certain segment of the public wants it to be that way (and a certain political party takes steps to make it so), that is not how things are now.
Specifically on this point, the thresholds are often a problem. Get a $1.50 raise at work, and suddenly disqualified for food stamps or other financial assistance. Ultimately, they completely lose the assistance which was worth more than their raise.

I believe that ALL of our welfare programs should have a linear phase-out. Determine at what income level 100% of the support stops. As you go up from there, for every extra $1 you make, you lose 25 cents of support.

So if you're getting $400/month in foodstamps now, and get a $500 raise at work, you're now receiving $275/month in foodstamps.

Pre-Raise
$1000/month salary
$400/month food stamps
$1400 total

Post-raise
$1500/month salary
$275/month food stamps
$1775 total

That would help people without trapping them. Give them a way out!
This is a method I could perhaps agree to. I'd have to consider the idea some more, but your example makes sense. Thanks for sharing it.

Off top of my head, I'd want to ensure that the money is being used for actual food, and not cashed out for cigarettes, beer, phones, or drugs. My question for you is this: for those who like getting free money from the government, what's the incentive to encourage them to stop relying (or planning to rely on) welfare to meet their needs? By this, I mean those who choose not to save for retirement because of the mindset of "I'll just spend everything I have now because it's the government's job to take care of me if I can't take care of myself. I don't need to plan for retirement, that's what Social Security is for." My mother has this mindset, and it drives me nuts.
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Aitrus
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by Aitrus »

tspwizard1 wrote: Not all of aspire to make money off of people like they are cattle.
And not all who aspire to make money do so off people as if they are cattle - in fact, very few actually do. That's why I hate the term "giving back" - it implies that the person "giving back" took something that didn't belong to them, when in fact they did nothing of the sort. Nobody's been cheated.

Example 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1EzkbvgGgc

Example 2 (the applicable portion is from around 14:45 - 23:00):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXN2gtWX5ds
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Scorpio70
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by Scorpio70 »

Shucks, we were so poor we fried breadcrumbs and olive oil. As adults, my wife and I live pretty frugally. We just have zero debt which makes a world of difference. I can give people who are not terribly bright, or lucky things they need, that they otherwise could not afford. (I mean family.)

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mjedlin66
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by mjedlin66 »

Aitrus wrote:
Off top of my head, I'd want to ensure that the money is being used for actual food, and not cashed out for cigarettes, beer, phones, or drugs.
You can't, really. We have rules in place that EBT can only be used for food. But people buy food with EBT and use the cash they have in their pocket for their alcohol.

As frustrating as that is, it really doesn't bother me too much. People have the right to drink alcohol. The only thing we can tell them how to use is the money we are giving them for food.
Aitrus wrote: My question for you is this: for those who like getting free money from the government, what's the incentive to encourage them to stop relying (or planning to rely on) welfare to meet their needs? By this, I mean those who choose not to save for retirement because of the mindset of "I'll just spend everything I have now because it's the government's job to take care of me if I can't take care of myself. I don't need to plan for retirement, that's what Social Security is for." My mother has this mindset, and it drives me nuts.
1) The progressive system that I just shared with you incentivizes people to make more money and get off of welfare. When they get promotions, it DOES improve their bottom line.
2) She's not wrong, though. If someone contributes to Social Security their whole life, they have the right to depend on it in retirement or in case of disablement. That's how the program works.
3) Social Security is actually a method of forcing people to save for retirement. You and I might be better off without Social Security, because we are forward-thinkers. Removing Social Security is not going to make the vast majority of people plan ahead. Instead, we'd just have more people making it to retirement age without a dime to spare. Yes, it's their problem. But it's also everyone else's problem. When one person retires broke, it's their own fault. When 30% of the country does it, it's still their own fault. But on a macro scale, we have millions of broke elderly and disabled people- i.e. MASSIVE drag on the economy, which ends up affecting you and I.

I think one of the fundamental differences between me and libertarians is that libertarians assume people at large will make wise decisions. I don't believe that at all, under any circumstances. And if enough people make really bad, self-destructive decisions, that affects everyone.

That said, I am open to a Social Security reform in which people would have a couple of choices of where to invest their Social Security funds. These choices would have to be extremely broad-market options. For example, you could choose the S&P 500 instead of the Social Security trust fund. No trading would be allowed whatsoever; you would be required to invest every paycheck and you could never sell or trade until you reach retirement age. That would work. Or, a lifecycle-fund kind of investment vehicle that automatically shifts from broad-market toward bonds as the user approaches retirement age.

But hedge funds? Individual stock picks? No. Too volatile. If the point of Social Security is to ensure that you are not a social liability later in life, then you should be required to invest in something that is certain to go up in the long run.
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stilljammi
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by stilljammi »

I know folks who have bought Bridge cards for as low as $50, which never made sense to me because they give you $100s per month depending on how many kids you have, who's gonna sell it for $50?! Then someone had to explain to me that shelters will always give you a meal and there are many non-profits that give you food to take home. So if you're desperate and can use cash in exchange for your card, you're not necessarily going to go hungry.

Not saying this makes food stamps bad, but there needs to be a better system. There's an entire black market for those bridge cards and nobody really cares because at the end of the day the money DOES get spent on food. Lobbyists for supermarkets and convenience & drug stores make sure that funding doesn't get cut. They couldn't care less about people going hungry, those corporations rely on that very valuable revenue stream because every dollar that's appropriated is a dollar in the pocket of their client.

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mjedlin66
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by mjedlin66 »

stilljammi wrote:I know folks who have bought Bridge cards for as low as $50, which never made sense to me because they give you $100s per month depending on how many kids you have, who's gonna sell it for $50?! Then someone had to explain to me that shelters will always give you a meal and there are many non-profits that give you food to take home. So if you're desperate and can use cash in exchange for your card, you're not necessarily going to go hungry.

Not saying this makes food stamps bad, but there needs to be a better system. There's an entire black market for those bridge cards and nobody really cares because at the end of the day the money DOES get spent on food. Lobbyists for supermarkets and convenience & drug stores make sure that funding doesn't get cut. They couldn't care less about people going hungry, those corporations rely on that very valuable revenue stream because every dollar that's appropriated is a dollar in the pocket of their client.
Not sure what the bridge cards are, but the federal SNAP program issues a plastic debit card that requires a PIN. More difficult, but probably not impossible to sell it on the black market. But, since USDA can track the use of the card, it would be easier to track fraud. You can go to prison for selling SNAP benefits.
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Aitrus
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by Aitrus »

mjedlin66 wrote: You can't, really. We have rules in place that EBT can only be used for food. But people buy food with EBT and use the cash they have in their pocket for their alcohol.

As frustrating as that is, it really doesn't bother me too much. People have the right to drink alcohol. The only thing we can tell them how to use is the money we are giving them for food.
Here's how to use the EBT for booze / drugs -
Step 1: Go to the store, pick out a cheap candy bar.
Step 2: Pay for candy bar with EBT, and ask for $20 cash back (just like on a debit card).
Step 3: Go to another store, repeat process.
Step 4: When enough is cashed out, go to local corner booze store / drug dealer.
Step 5: When you get a raise or job, don't report it to the authorities controlling the EBT system, so get your raise / job and keep the higher EBT payments too.

As for using EBT money for alcohol: I agree, people have the right to drink booze and smoke weed in states where it's legal, but not with other people's money (aka - taxpayer dollars). The rules should be that if you're on EBT, you can't do drugs or drink. The system shouldn't just issue EBT cards and then refill the accounts without any oversight. To get your funds, you should have to go pick up a check and be drug / alcohol tested in order to get it. You should also be audited to ensure that you aren't making money and claiming benefits at the same time.

Example of the mindset of people on welfare (not all, I admit, but a large number): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRRwZDSmTVI

It's not just a few hundred dollars a month. Here's an example of the full scope of welfare programs that involve both state and federal money, and why so many people push for welfare reform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yiyi5YTNAU
2) She's not wrong, though. If someone contributes to Social Security their whole life, they have the right to depend on it in retirement or in case of disablement. That's how the program works.
Social Security isn't an entitlement. Supreme Court ruled so in Fleming v Nestor.
Source: https://www.fedsmith.com/2015/07/06/soc ... guarantee/

Your monthly SSI paycheck tax doesn't go into an account with your name on it. It goes into a barrel along with everybody else's money. When you reach retirement age, you then are granted the ability to dip your hand into that barrel and pull out whatever the government says you can pull out. Because so many people plan on having SSI in retirement, it incentivizes them to not save for retirement.
3) Social Security is actually a method of forcing people to save for retirement. You and I might be better off without Social Security, because we are forward-thinkers. Removing Social Security is not going to make the vast majority of people plan ahead. Instead, we'd just have more people making it to retirement age without a dime to spare. Yes, it's their problem. But it's also everyone else's problem. When one person retires broke, it's their own fault. When 30% of the country does it, it's still their own fault. But on a macro scale, we have millions of broke elderly and disabled people- i.e. MASSIVE drag on the economy, which ends up affecting you and I.

I think one of the fundamental differences between me and libertarians is that libertarians assume people at large will make wise decisions. I don't believe that at all, under any circumstances. And if enough people make really bad, self-destructive decisions, that affects everyone.
No quite. Libertarians don't assume that people at large will make wise decisions. They assume that society isn't morally or ethically responsible for the consequences of the choices of the individual or that person's unfortunate life circumstances. They further assume that if such understanding of society's stance toward individual choices were made clear to people and taught to children as they grow up - and that this stance was backed up with follow-through - then people would default to making choices that benefit themselves and society as a whole. They are left to choose between starvation or working to feed themselves in some manner.

Yes, that's a hard and difficult pill to swallow for some, but who said that people are guaranteed an easy life? Let's say that welfare were cut off and the 30% you quote have a very hard decade - what will be the result? In part, you'll get a cohort of currently working and future generations who will see what happens if you do don't make good choices - and that's a good thing in the long run if government doesn't get in the way of the populace learning it. Here's the lesson that the Great Depression taught the Boomer generation and was passed on to the ones who followed: the government will come to your rescue. The generation that suffered through the Great Depression learned a different lesson: work hard, be prepared for emergencies, and don't trust big banks and big government to have your best interest in mind. Which do you think is the lesson that serves individuals and society better?

One statement you said that I'm unclear on: you said that if 30% of the country retires broke, that it'll be a drag on the economy. How? Right now, they're retiring broke and relying on SSA / Medicare - Medicaid, and that's a huge drag on the economy. Combined, these programs are 60% of federal spending.

Source: https://media.nationalpriorities.org/up ... nacted.png
Site where above image was pulled from: https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budg ... /spending/
That said, I am open to a Social Security reform in which people would have a couple of choices of where to invest their Social Security funds. These choices would have to be extremely broad-market options. For example, you could choose the S&P 500 instead of the Social Security trust fund. No trading would be allowed whatsoever; you would be required to invest every paycheck and you could never sell or trade until you reach retirement age. That would work. Or, a lifecycle-fund kind of investment vehicle that automatically shifts from broad-market toward bonds as the user approaches retirement age.

But hedge funds? Individual stock picks? No. Too volatile. If the point of Social Security is to ensure that you are not a social liability later in life, then you should be required to invest in something that is certain to go up in the long run.
If we treated SSA as a mandatory national retirement investment platform - meaning, to privatize it and the money you put in is actually yours - then I could agree to that. Treat it just like the TSP, and limit everybody to one IFT a year to re-balance their portfolio. Hell, the infrastructure is already there with TSP. Just copy the method and there ya go.

Of course that will never fly. It makes too much sense, and we can't have any of that in government now, can we? Instead, people and politicians will use appeals to emotion: "We have to keep giving current worker's money to retirees because otherwise they'll be out on the street!"

Side note: I'm enjoying the conversation, MJ. It's nice when people can logically discuss an issue without resorting to name calling or other trollish behavior. Thank you.
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misfit
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by misfit »

That welfare abuse youtube clip is one of the most sickening things I have ever heard. What a dispicable piece of trash. And she mentions her parents were the same way. How can someone Sit around all day and do nothing. Great example to set for the kids. Disturbing!

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jlozano042
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by jlozano042 »

misfit wrote:That welfare abuse youtube clip is one of the most sickening things I have ever heard. What a dispicable piece of trash. And she mentions her parents were the same way. How can someone Sit around all day and do nothing. Great example to set for the kids. Disturbing!
I'm not easily frightened ... but people like that and religious zealots scare the shit out of me. :evil:

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userque
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by userque »

LOL...sounded staged to me. Designed to elicit the exact responses seen here (or to boost the shows ratings).
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Aitrus
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by Aitrus »

Here ya go, userque. Maybe this one doesn't seem so scripted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6WhD01IeA

And another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RguOd3VTquM

Sadly, this mindset and these kinds of circumstances are not one-off events. They are commonplace, due to a system that encourages dependence instead of responsible independence. I know because I grew up in that kind of environment, and swore that my kids wouldn't grow up the way that I did. I made the choice to travel a different path, and that - to paraphrase Robert Frost - has made all the difference. And if I can do it, anybody can.
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userque
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by userque »

Aitrus wrote:Here ya go, userque. Maybe this one doesn't seem so scripted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b6WhD01IeA

And another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RguOd3VTquM

Sadly, this mindset and these kinds of circumstances are not one-off events. They are commonplace, due to a system that encourages dependence instead of responsible independence. I know because I grew up in that kind of environment, and swore that my kids wouldn't grow up the way that I did. I made the choice to travel a different path, and that - to paraphrase Robert Frost - has made all the difference. And if I can do it, anybody can.
Thanks, haven't watched them yet, but I'm aware that the system is abused. However, not everyone abuses the system; and I doubt that most abuse the system ... but until we have actual, statistically diverse and significant data, we can only extrapolate our personal knowledge and 'believe' that our universe represents the whole thing.

I'm glad you made it. But not everyone is in the situation you were in. Did you have to deal with hourly gun play in your neighborhood? Did you have to deal with violent rival gangs forcing recruitment. Did you have to deal with racism? To some kids, homework can't be the priority, surviving is.

Just because everyone born in this country, is born in this country; doesn't mean that they all have the same opportunities and odds for success.

Again, congratulations on your success.
"In the land of idiots, the moron is King."

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misfit
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Re: The stimulus bill includes a tax break for the 1%

Post by misfit »

It's the entitlement attitude that gets on the nerves. It's expected - BS!

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