News of the Day

For those topics that don't have a place in any of the other forums.

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Aitrus
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Re: News of the Day

Post by Aitrus »

userque wrote: I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, I’m just trying to respond to one ‘issue’ or point at a time.

I asked to see where the main media has spun the story. You’ve provided some links, but can you quote the ‘spin’ parts?
Ok, one piece at a time. First, what is "spin"? From https://www.thoughtco.com/spin-communication-1691988:

"Spin is a contemporary term for a form of propaganda that relies on deceptive methods of persuasion. In politics, business, and elsewhere, spin is often characterized by exaggeration, euphemisms, inaccuracies, half-truths, and excessively emotional appeals."

For the sake of simplicity, I suggest we use the above definition as "spin".

Now, from the CNN article I quoted before:

- "Trump's comments made his extravagant claims..."
- "Trump's bizarre performance..."
- "The surreal nature of the spectacle later prompted CNN's Chief White House Correspondent Jim Acosta to reflect on air: "This is sort of becoming President Trump's traveling medicine show.""
- "So it's easy to mock Trump. But he also has the world's largest megaphone, appears to be openly mulling a treatment that could cause people to poison themselves if they adopted it and has a record of deflecting from the grave reality of the virus to peddle optimism that may not be matched by the facts. He also seems to have little time for the rigorous clinical testing and factual deduction that is at the heart of generations of advances in clinical science and is the bedrock of ethical medicine."
- "Trump's comments horrified medical experts"
- "The latest medical follies..."
- "But the last sentence of his comment shows how he advances a wild theory but then gives himself some cover." (referring to a statement Trump made in Feb - was the statement truly "wild", or was it optimistic given the information available a the time?)

These are all opinions, emotional appeals, and/or pure conjecture, which have no place in a supposedly unbiased and fact-based article. These are used in an effort to deceptively manipulate the reader's understanding and opinion of what actually happened. That is the first part of the "spin".

Next, throughout the article the author conveyed quotes from CEOs and medical experts saying that disinfectant shouldn't be injected or used to try to kill the virus inside the body. While that's true enough given the current level of technology, it's also clear that this is not what the President intended with his statements. Yet, the quotes from CEOs and experts make it seem as if this is exactly what the President meant, and they went about refuting the idea wholesale. This is presenting a half-truth and then using experts to rebut it as if it were the whole truth, which is the other half of "spinning" the story.

Now, I'm not saying that the right-wing media doesn't do this kind of thing. All of media needs to be held to a higher standard. But I see it worse on the left than I do on the right.
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bloobs
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Re: News of the Day

Post by bloobs »

Aitrus wrote:
Sorry if it's hard for me to curb my skepticism about the state of our current "just and fair" media.

Aitrus, how about these Fox apples?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... t-comments

Are you now taking foxnews off the whitelist now too?
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userque
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Re: News of the Day

Post by userque »

bloobs wrote:
Aitrus wrote:
Sorry if it's hard for me to curb my skepticism about the state of our current "just and fair" media.

Aitrus, how about these Fox apples?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... t-comments

Are you now taking foxnews off the whitelist now too?
Lol. Aitrus, bloobs raises a point. Information has come to light that substantially affects our discussion.

Your position seems to be rooted in Trump's claim being authentic, supported by science, etc. (keep in mind, my issue was with the disinfectant comment, not the light comments you introduced ... but that'll all be addressed later, if need be.)

My position was that his claim was nonsensical.

Trump has essentially indicated that his claim was sarcasm. Sarcasm, if taken at face value, is nonsensical. Trump made no indication that he was being sarcastic at the time; and you proceeded, again, as though he spoke words of wisdom.

My current question to you is, do you wish to continue to defend Trump's so-called sarcasm as though he spoke words of wisdom?




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Re: News of the Day

Post by Aitrus »

I'm not defending Trump's actions, I'm attacking those of the media (my original comment was along the lines of "watch how the media will spin this"). Yes, the President can be misspoken, mistaken, or completely wrong at times - including this time. I've admitted as much repeatedly, including in this thread as well. I've said it before - I don't like the man personally, but he is the duly elected person currently in the position. I said exactly the same thing about Obama - didn't like him personally, but he's the man in the chair. I disagree with some of what Trump has done, just as I've disagreed with things that Obama has done. I'm not defending Trump right now (and which is what you appear to want me to try to do); what I'm doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of the media, which nobody but a few on the right or in libertarian-leaning circles seem to be concerned about.

What I haven't heard is a good justification for the left-wing media's continued and ongoing journalistic malpractice. Not just with Trump - his most recent misstep and their reaction to it is just the latest evidence. I'm talking about the wider picture here - going back to the Bush and Obama days - a topic that you seem to be ignoring.

Take Biden, for example. Nobody in the left-wing is questioning his character in regards to sexual assault allegations that have been levied against him. Yet just over a year ago, everybody was up in arms over Kavanaugh's accuser, and the situations are virtually identical: a man who is seeking a high position of office has been accused by a woman from decades ago of sexual impropriety. While I don't believe in the pseudo guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset of the MeToo movement (on the contrary, I firmly believe that every rapist should be killed and/or castrated), I do have a problem with the left-wing media's widely varying treatment of the two cases. They display clear bias, and render the Fourth Estate virtually impotent in their most important duty: to honestly inform the public. Not to inform the public in the way that they wish or deem appropriate, mind you. I mean that it's their duty to portray the facts as they truly are, with no opinion or spin or with regard to how they feel personally about the issue at hand. The left-wing media constantly gives Trump a hard time, but served up softballs whenever a Democrat is on the podium - and has done so for decades.

Where's Walter Cronkite when you need him? Whatever happened to the Paul Harveys of the world? Newsmen who asked the tough questions regardless who was in front of the microphone, who delivered the basic facts, whose ultimate goal was to help people understand the situation from all sides of the issue and let people make up their minds for themselves. Men and women with gravitas, honor, courage, and didn't let their ego get in the way of doing their job.

That's what I have a problem with in today's media. And I have yet to see anybody - here or elsewhere - provide an answer for it.
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stilljammi
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Re: News of the Day

Post by stilljammi »

Most disinfectants work by either destroying the cell walls (bleach), dissolving the lipids (soap), or by drying out the liquid in which the virus/germ is carried in (isopropyl alcohol). UV light destroys DNA/RNA (anything cellular and non-cellular, including viruses). Any disinfectant that actually works for killing bacteria or viruses, will harm your tissue. There's really no getting around that fact.

What Trump said demonstrated such a misunderstanding of that fundamental idea, it's difficult to understand how he got this far as POTUS during a viral pandemic. It would be like going thru Fallujah in a Humvee and your driver leans over and asks "what exactly is an IED again?"

It shows that basically the institutions are running this country, thank God. At best, maybe Trump was mixing up disinfectants with antiseptics or antibiotics, he obviously wasn't when he offered the ultimate capitulation of "lol sarcasm".

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Re: News of the Day

Post by userque »

stilljammi wrote:Most disinfectants work by either destroying the cell walls (bleach), dissolving the lipids (soap), or by drying out the liquid in which the virus/germ is carried in (isopropyl alcohol). UV light destroys DNA/RNA (anything cellular and non-cellular, including viruses). Any disinfectant that actually works for killing bacteria or viruses, will harm your tissue. There's really no getting around that fact.

What Trump said demonstrated such a misunderstanding of that fundamental idea, it's difficult to understand how he got this far as POTUS during a viral pandemic. It would be like going thru Fallujah in a Humvee and your driver leans over and asks "what exactly is an IED again?"

It shows that basically the institutions are running this country, thank God. At best, maybe Trump was mixing up disinfectants with antiseptics or antibiotics, he obviously wasn't when he offered the ultimate capitulation of "lol sarcasm".
Very well said.
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Re: News of the Day

Post by TomlinsTE »

userque wrote:
I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, I’m just trying to respond to one ‘issue’ or point at a time.

I asked to see where the main media has spun the story. You’ve provided some links, but can you quote the ‘spin’ parts?
It seems to me like POTUS was brainstorming, which is where all ideas no matter how odd sounding are examined. It's how "thinking outside the box" works. POTUS tossed around some ideas including Paraphrasing: "Maybe medical professionals could look into any possibility of sanitizing internally." POTUS did not suggest that anyone should ingest sanitizer. All reasonable people know better than to inject or ingest sanitizer. The media reports that suggest the POTUS recommended individuals ingest or inject sanitizer are the "spin parts" that you're looking for.
i think we can all agree it's unfortunate he decided to claim he was being sarcastic.

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Re: News of the Day

Post by userque »

TomlinsTE wrote:...The media reports that suggest the POTUS recommended individuals ingest or inject sanitizer are the "spin parts" that you're looking for. ...
Please cite and quote that report so that we are all on the same page and discussing the same thing.

Note, that I haven't processed Aitrus' information yet, so there is no need to repeat his information if you are getting it from his posts.
"In the land of idiots, the moron is King."

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TomlinsTE
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Re: News of the Day

Post by TomlinsTE »

userque wrote:
TomlinsTE wrote:...The media reports that suggest the POTUS recommended individuals ingest or inject sanitizer are the "spin parts" that you're looking for. ...
Please cite and quote that report so that we are all on the same page and discussing the same thing.

Note, that I haven't processed Aitrus' information yet, so there is no need to repeat his information if you are getting it from his posts.
I can't imagine how you don't see and hear the same things I do. Here's one in case you really can't see them everywhere:
~~~~FAKE NEWS~~~~
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/23/opinions ... index.html
(CNN)Just when we thought President Donald Trump might be inclined to tamp down his impulses to suggest unproven and dangerous cures for Covid-19, Thursday's nightly performance brought an even wilder parade of ideas from the President. Perhaps we should consider injecting disinfectants, Trump posited, prompting the maker of Lysol to issue an urgent warning, "under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route)."
~~~~~~~~
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Re: News of the Day

Post by userque »

TomlinsTE wrote:...Apologies to those that don't come to TSP Center for political squabbling. I'll try to resist.
What are you apologizing for?

Aitrus, others, and I enjoy a good debate. Debating is part of life. It is how minds are changed/bettered ... though not always.

The good book says, "come, let us reason together," and "as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."

Before I take the time to respond to your post, I must ask you: are you interested in debating the issue until we agree, or agree to disagree?

Grown folks should know how to not read what upsets them, if reading others' debates; in a forum designed for debating; in a thread where debates have been occurring ... somehow makes them angry. They'll eventually figure it out, or not.

Debating, per se, is not our enemy. Uncivilized behavior, debating or otherwise, is.

So, what'll it be?
"In the land of idiots, the moron is King."

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Re: News of the Day

Post by userque »

Aitrus wrote:...Yes, the President can be misspoken, mistaken, or completely wrong at times - including this time.
(Again, and going forward; not ignoring the rest of your post, I have it logged. Just trying to stay in chronological order, and one at a time--to the extent possible, of course.)

You said you saw the briefing. Everyone in the world :) that saw the briefing, or was present at the briefing, knows Trump wasn't being sarcastic.

Do you admit that he wasn't being sarcastic?
"In the land of idiots, the moron is King."

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Re: News of the Day

Post by bloobs »

One of the greatest mysteries for me, besides that of how exactly the great pyramids of Egypt were built, is how Adolf Hitler convinced most of the german people that what he was doing between 1933 and 1945 was the best option for them. I used to think that a fluke event in history.

I found it ludicrous that this guy and his small group of henchmen literally spit-screamed their way over 12 years into making otherwise calm, measured, decent, logical, industrious, and highly intelligent people believe that it was okay for them to believe and explain away the progressively arcane stream of delusions and lies of their leaders to proactively make war and invade all their neighboring countries and send off millions of their children to die in them.

All because they got jobs in factories making the bombs and tanks needed for that war, as well as the national "pride" they got in conquering others. They turned a blind eye as countless jewish neighbors were carted off to be massacred too. That was acceptable as well and could be explained, they rationalized.

Even by 1944, as their own cities and homes were being bombed to pieces by the Allies, directly killing off hundreds of thousands of civilians--they still kept those eyes closed as the crescendo of the utter destruction caused by their 12 year worsening bout with cognitive dissonance knocked loudly at their front door.

Now I know how. I am seeing it with my own eyes.
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
― Mahatma Gandhi

If it's a choice between a difficult truth and a simple lie, people will take the lie every time. Even if it kills them.
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Re: News of the Day

Post by sonofnthng »

Aitrus, trading your posts... I'm not the guy who says you're a trump apologist. You and I are in good company in this discussion.. I can't get on either team as they both act ridiculous. If I point out the absurdity of the left, my liberal friends attack the shit out of me for not thinking how they think.. Kinda anti progressive in itself, no? But the Maga hat wearing idiots who are easily tricked into hating Mexicans and the welfare state (which is used predominately by Caucasian American citizens) are no friends of mine either.

Stuck in the middle, alienated by indoctrinated buffoons. Aitrus, you're not allowed to cite facts without being torn to shreds by liberals for not hating trump to their standards. It's a weird world we live in. Crack a beer and watch the sunset, not the news.
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Aitrus
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Re: News of the Day

Post by Aitrus »

bloobs - it happened in Nazi Germany by small steps. Excessive printing of money to cover increases in the welfare state, bad outcomes resulting from governmental policy being blamed on a small subset of society, the outlawing of firearms, and finally the indoctrination among the youth of an approved set of beliefs / worldviews that was enforced by the media, the Browncoats, and eventually by the police. Yes, we're seeing it happen here, but roughly half the country is likely not recognizing it.
Aitrus, others, and I enjoy a good debate. Debating is part of life. It is how minds are changed/bettered ... though not always.

The good book says, "come, let us reason together," and "as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."
Or, as Marcus Aurelius would say: "If anyone can prove and show to me that I think and act in error, I will gladly change it - for I seek the truth, by which no one has ever been harmed. The one who is harmed is the one who abides in deceit and ignorance."

Similarly, Cicero was once accused of changing his mind. When confronted that something he had just said was different than what he said in the past, he replied: "I live from one day to the next! If something strikes me as probable, I say it; and that is how, unlike everyone else, I remain a free agent."

Emerson echoed this sentiment: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and diviners."

userque, you seem to want me to focus on what Trump said, but that's not the point of the debate. The debate is the reaction of the media. I have no idea if the man was being sarcastic - I'm not a mind reader, and neither is anybody else. However, the real issue is fact that the media locked in on comments that - as TomlinsTE pointed out (and that I tried to say, but he said it better) - could only be taken incorrectly by those looking to "spin" what he said, or who are so idiotic that they'll believe anything (like drinking fish tank cleaner). There are far, far bigger issues at stake, yet the media focuses on inane off-hand comments as if it's yet another sign that our elected leader is leading us toward another apocalypse, when nothing is further from the truth.

sonofnthing has it right - I think I'll take a break for a while. Thanks for the advice, my friend.
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bloobs
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Re: News of the Day

Post by bloobs »

Aitrus wrote:bloobs - it happened in Nazi Germany by small steps. Excessive printing of money to cover increases in the welfare state, bad outcomes resulting from governmental policy being blamed on a small subset of society, the outlawing of firearms, and finally the indoctrination among the youth of an approved set of beliefs / worldviews that was enforced by the media, the Browncoats, and eventually by the police. Yes, we're seeing it happen here, but roughly half the country is likely not recognizing it.
I disagree with all your perceived core causes of the rise of the third reich above. That is cherry picking confirmation bias at its finest.

Well, except for your last point-- but i am sure we have opposite perceptions of who this "half" of the country is that has got its collective head in the sand.

I am just curious of what the tolerance level is. How much more social, economic, moral damage (and tens of thousands of innocent human lives lost) has to still happen to sway those away from blind loyalty to one man who clearly cares for NO ONE but himself?

I am not talking about Adolf.
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
― Mahatma Gandhi

If it's a choice between a difficult truth and a simple lie, people will take the lie every time. Even if it kills them.
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