How Low Can We Go

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stilljammi
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:59 pm

Re: How Low Can We Go

Post by stilljammi »

An individual who truly believes in capitalism would let the corporations fail. Even the government-jobs-program contractors like Lockheed. Another company will adapt and rise, absorb the assets, and re-employ the workers. If there's demand for the output of the company, supply will always meet it (from another corp in this case). If there isn't demand for it, it shouldn't exist. Bailing out companies in the hopes that it trickles down to the workers is asking the wolf to provide for the sheep.

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bloobs
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Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 8:00 pm

Re: How Low Can We Go

Post by bloobs »

stilljammi wrote:An individual who truly believes in capitalism would let the corporations fail. Even the government-jobs-program contractors like Lockheed. Another company will adapt and rise, absorb the assets, and re-employ the workers. If there's demand for the output of the company, supply will always meet it (from another corp in this case). If there isn't demand for it, it shouldn't exist. Bailing out companies in the hopes that it trickles down to the workers is asking the wolf to provide for the sheep.
Agree in concept. Can you imagine if the $130b spent in bailing out the big three automakers in 2008 had instead been invested by the government in helping out innovative US companies like Tesla develop their manufactuing capacity and retrain tens of thosands of autoworkers into building cars with actual 21st century technology?

Korea did such a thing when it let Daewoo languish regardless of its too big to fail status for the Korean econmy. Their newly formulated auto industry is doing much better now as a result of it.
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
― Mahatma Gandhi

If it's a choice between a difficult truth and a simple lie, people will take the lie every time. Even if it kills them.
― Paul Murray

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userque
Posts: 658
Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: How Low Can We Go

Post by userque »

Good points stilljammi and bloobs

The question becomes, what is pure capitalism, and should we be/become it?

Why is bailing out ... ultimately people ... a bad thing simply because it doesn't have the label of: capitalism?

Hearken back to the time before the federal government. Wait, we weren't alive then. Well, read up on what it was like before the federal government.

If you think about it, the federal government is all about socialism.

I always say, before one advocates for the removal of something, research why that something came into existence in the first place.

Would you help your neighbor with something? That's socialism.
If you have a religious belief, I'd bet it's socialistic in nature.

Avoid labels, imo. Ask and answer for yourself ... regardless of "the label," is this the right thing to do.

My guess is that there are no purely socialistic or purely capitalistic societies. Why? because you need parts of both to be a healthy society. The only question is how much of each should we be.

So my point is that yeah, bailouts are a form of socialism. So are other things in our "capitalistic" society. To argue that a bailout is "evil" requires more than just pointing out "IT'S SOCIALISM!" :lol:

We've been programmed via repetition to react a certain way when buzzwords are activated.

(To be clear: I never argued the point [are bailouts good or evil] either way in my previous posts. I'm still not. Because I don't know the answer. That answer would require a lot of research ... at least for me.)
"In the land of idiots, the moron is King."

jdeacon
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: How Low Can We Go

Post by jdeacon »

My memory of the 2008 bailout was that the us treasury made money due to return on equity. I googled and confirmed that TARP cost about $700B but returned more than $800B. The bailout of the auto industries broke abot even. The policy of demanding an equity interest in return for government bailout money appeared to be a good one which avoided a depression. If we are requiring the same equity interest this time, perhaps fears are overblown. Regardless, I do understand why we are not now demanding an equity interest on our defense contractors who we are bailing out by allowing them to charge their employees salaries even though many are staying home and not telecommuting. We should be demanding an equity interest on this latter group just as we did for the automotive and financial industries.

McWinning
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:55 pm

Re: How Low Can We Go

Post by McWinning »

jdeacon wrote:My memory of the 2008 bailout was that the us treasury made money due to return on equity. I googled and confirmed that TARP cost about $700B but returned more than $800B. The bailout of the auto industries broke abot even. The policy of demanding an equity interest in return for government bailout money appeared to be a good one which avoided a depression. If we are requiring the same equity interest this time, perhaps fears are overblown. Regardless, I do understand why we are not now demanding an equity interest on our defense contractors who we are bailing out by allowing them to charge their employees salaries even though many are staying home and not telecommuting. We should be demanding an equity interest on this latter group just as we did for the automotive and financial industries.
Because the government mandated that companies close. So the government must rectify the harm caused. It would be difficult to blame companies for this economic hardship like we did with the financial crisis. This time it is a virus, though some are starting to blame China as if they had the power to prevent it.

jdeacon
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:38 pm

Re: How Low Can We Go

Post by jdeacon »

Good point on those industries the government mandated closing. It is the ones the government did not mandate closing that I am referring to.

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