A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

[Aitrus]

I came across the Propertarianism movement a while back. It has some interesting theories, ideas, and proposals. Admittedly, there's a ton of stuff that this group has covered, but I've read their Declaration of Reformation and their proposed amendments for an updated / restored Constitution. Given all of the rioting and social / political conflict in our society these days, this group seems to be the only ones offering a possible solution.

This coming Saturday, the 4th of July, they'll be meeting in Richmond to kick formally announce their proposal. They make no bones about coming from the conservative side of the aisle, but they seem to be sincere in their efforts, and predict an escalation of the cultural violence we've been seeing if something isn't done sooner or later.

Here's a quick overview of the biggest pieces of what they propose (watch all the way to the end): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciefChL0PJM

Link to their Declaration / Constitution (watch the video first - there's multiple hours of reading in this link): https://seconddeclaration.org/

I'm not entirely decided on what I think about these proposals, and I'm interested in seeing what you guys think. Thoughts?

[michigande]

Ok, I tried. For the first seven minutes of the 35 minute video he described how carefully thought out "the plan" is, but didn't give a single detail about, "the plan," so I got fantastically bored and stopped watching.

Soooo... which side in the upcoming civil war will fund our US government pensions? (I don't disagree that we're currently in a cold civil war)

[crondanet5]

We are the Borg. They will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. Look what happened to the Tea Party.

To quote one of the best books ever written: "All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others."

[stilljammi]

What a mess.

Their premise is that the left and its cities and culture have violated natural laws and are incompatible with the rest of America. The solution is to allow the left (and the right) to create its own states and governments in its lands and are barely answerable to any sort of federal law. No legislative or executive branch, judicial branch gains more power and ok's any federal laws. Eliminate the IRS and install a flat tax and sales tax. (A system that doesn't bring in revenue any better than the current system, and broken enough to allow for even more mass evasion. VAT is a better system.) Also, it doesn't explain how the national debt is going to be divided up and transferred under this new system. They want to nationalize a bunch of companies (Google, Facebook, insurance companies), nationalize all personal debt, eliminate interest and speculation, end labor unions. The healthcare model is surprisingly European, even though it criticizes it. There are some interesting observations about the problems of the education system, but they offer no practical 21st-century solutions.

On the surface (if you just watched the video), this entire system sounds like it was formed by antifederalists from the 1700s. A benign little conservative, entrepreneurial set of ideas.

Once you dig deeper, you realize this is racist, sexist, antisemitic trash straight from the depths of /pol/.

White Europeans are praised as superior, some races are of lower intelligence. It advocates for eugenics, involuntary paternity tests...lol. English only, no gay marriage, women have no place in politics, Muslims have contributed nothing. Interracial marriage is allowed, although it's incentivized to stay within your race.

There's much more vile stuff on the site, but I don't think it would be allowed to even be mentioned on this forum. And not even interesting stuff, just boring garden variety white supremacy with some complaints about federalism. Also, it's not well-written and not coherently organized.

[Bubba]

I came across the Propertarianism movement a while back. It has some interesting theories, ideas, and proposals. Admittedly, there's a ton of stuff that this group has covered, but I've read their Declaration of Reformation and their proposed amendments for an updated / restored Constitution. Given all of the rioting and social / political conflict in our society these days, this group seems to be the only ones offering a possible solution.

This coming Saturday, the 4th of July, they'll be meeting in Richmond to kick formally announce their proposal. They make no bones about coming from the conservative side of the aisle, but they seem to be sincere in their efforts, and predict an escalation of the cultural violence we've been seeing if something isn't done sooner or later.

Here's a quick overview of the biggest pieces of what they propose (watch all the way to the end): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciefChL0PJM

Link to their Declaration / Constitution (watch the video first - there's multiple hours of reading in this link): https://seconddeclaration.org/

I'm not entirely decided on what I think about these proposals, and I'm interested in seeing what you guys think. Thoughts?

I'll give you my unbiased opinion. The main idea they espouse, that of all states becoming independent of each other, or at least working in a very loose union is to me utter nonsense. We had that under the Articles of Confederation and as a divided nation we will not stand (nor did we in the past). I know these people seem to say otherwise, but America is great because we are together, left and right, liberal and conservative. This idea they are suggesting comes from libertarianism and is another idea that won't sit well with the majority of people. An example of this is the European Union. As individual nations, you can negotiate with European countries and strong-arm them into different decisions. As an union, they are much more powerful and they get a lot more global trust.

I don't think the answer to is to break us up. I think the answer is to show how we as Americans actually have a lot more in common than not. In part, I think "specialized" media have allowed people to retreat from actually engaging and deliberating in different opinions. I see the present behavior of people (e.g. tearing down statues and contacting the highest person if there's a problem) as a sign of the times. For example, in a school situation, parents often don't contact the teacher or principal but go straight to the superintendent. Problems with the police go online immediately, without any discussion. The same goes for the highest order of society in terms of any governmental figure. Got a problem with the city, call the mayor, not the actual guy that can help you. This is in part due to the flattening of the hierarchy and how we don't respect authority. In any case, this is a diatribe at this point, but I see this as (America's) societal's greatest failure. The only way to fix this is to actually make changes within our culture. Right now people want something done because they said so and right this very instant. That goes for conservatives as well as liberals. People don't listen to each other and are unwilling to compromise. The first instance of this, by the way, was the Tea Party movement. I think this attitude has been infectious and will become more common than not.

Sorry, let me know change the topic of this thread.

Best,

Bubba

[bloobs]

My succinct thoughts:

1. It's an interesting and ambitious concept but dreamily expounded (meaning not easily executable given present circumstances).
2. I agree with their overt statements that neither the left or right is (completely) in the wrong.
3. However, if the above is true then why do they lean morally conservative in practice and membership then? Suspicious.
4. I assume that since practically all of their tenets are based off on pre-20th century plans and principles, its founders and members are all protestant caucasians--and male. Do they consult with "others" outside of that demographic?
5. Finally, if achieving peaceful secession is their ultimate tangible goal, that effectively would make California and Texas the new most powerful nations in the world. This would relegate deep south and most mid-western states to third world status as these states would be sociologically and economically unable to compete with other CA/TX and all other developed nations as their federal funding lifeblood is stopped and their already substandard educational and healthcare systems diminished further.

Epilogue: They espouse a notion that people who fundamentally disagree should be in effect separated by state. In effect, institute "segregation" Put that way it doesn't seem so noble or American after all. But who knows since that's probably where we're organically headed anyways.

[jlozano042]

"The Enemies Among Us have sought to pit Left against Right in a battle for supremacy through the defeat of the other."

- https://seconddeclaration.org/

Let's find the enemies among us and kick their fucking ass - and restore balance to this country I say.

Technically, that's all I could muster from reading their citation and my feeble mind.

[bloobs]

"The Enemies Among Us have sought to pit Left against Right in a battle for supremacy through the defeat of the other."

- https://seconddeclaration.org/

Let's find the enemies among us and kick their fucking ass - and restore balance to this country I say.

If by enemies, you mean the extremists (masquerading as normal American people) on both the left and right--then I am with you 100%. Every country who has chosen to be either completely left or right-wing in terms of its government or morality--HAS FAILED.

Moderates in control of government; those who value compromise or as you say it, "balance", amongst the majority--are and had been the key to keeping this union together and thriving.

[crondanet5]

If we separate the states the Visigoths will soon be at our door just as they sacked Rome. United we stand, compromisingly we move forward. 18 weeks until we vote in November. Let's see who is still standing after that.

Trumpites remember the Canadians closed the border. Your only option is North Korea.

[jlozano042]

If by enemies, you mean the extremists (masquerading as normal American people) on both the left and right--then I am with you 100%.

I'm with you bloobs!

[Tomanyiron]

Some people just got too much free time on their hands. Can't work, can't go to school, so they start to do nutty risky things, they would not even think of doing if they had to do something every day. Romans came to have a phrase like this just before the collapse.

Everyone has a college degree and think they are an expert on everything. So with all this government paid free time, they have time to tell the world what’s wrong with it. And if the world doesn’t pay enough attention to them, they have spoiled tantrum fits. If you work for a living, you’re too tired to go out to do “Peaceful” protesting, “Peaceful” vandalism, and “Peaceful” looting.

And yes I too take responsibility. I was ignorant of negative effects of being a good provider.

[Aitrus]

Hmm...good thoughts, guys. I appreciate the feedback. A lot of the concerns you share are similar to those that have popped into my mind as well. I was looking for some outside perspectives, and I got them. This site's membership continues to not disappoint - thank you.

I think that their point about reciprocity is well founded - you can't have a functioning society where violations of reciprocity are allowed to go unchecked. Allowing parasitic elements to flourish within a society also pull it down.

michigande - I admit, there is a lot of stuff to cover, and a great deal of it runs contrary to what we've all been taught all our lives. The YouTube channel owner - John Mark - has a lot of other videos explaining most (if not all) of the aspects of this movement. It takes a lot of patience to get through it all and even more to think about it and understand it. It's difficult to parse down into a simple, short video.

stilljammi - Are their arguments racist/sexist/antisemetic, or are they simply stating scientifically validated facts from studies, research, and history? If these facts are true and since the truth hurts, are we immediately disgusted in a reactionary way by these ideas only because we've been lied to and programmed to by society via the education system and reinforced by the media / Hollywood? If we had not been so programmed, would we be able to see the data for what it is and see the points they bring up as valid without immediately dismissing them as distasteful? I hope you can see my confusion on this, and why I'm still undecided on this point - part of the reason I reached out to you guys.

Bubba - I agree that change of some sort needs to happen. However, I think the point they are trying to make is that nobody on the Left is listening to the Right, and the leadership on the Right is capitulating to what the Right's rank-and-file see as unreasonable demands from the Left (or if not capitulating, then simply sitting on their hands). In that environment, compromise of any kind isn't possible. They're saying that "Since our society is proving that Left and Right can't live together, and our leadership is failing us miserably, the only rational and sane thing to do is to separate and agree to live and let live, or else there will be a war that the Left will not win, and there will be casualties on all sides. Thus, we are proposing a safe alternative, and we're the only ones doing so." At least, this is what I'm taking from their messaging.

bloobs - I agree, we've been self-sorting for a long time now. Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we've seen a huge increase in the number of people coming from California, Portland, and Seattle. Also, yes - they do consult with minorities and women quite extensively. I've followed the blogs / twitters / facebook conversations, and while the dominant membership is white men, there are significant numbers of minorities and women as well. Their approach is simple: "Here's our platform and program - prove us wrong through science and data, and we can have a conversation about it. Don't use emotional arguments, platitudes, or logical fallacies such as attacking our character. If you do so, you're only proving the point we're trying to make."

jlozano - Agreed - ignoring the fringe elements of Left and Right are both equally dangerous. Except that these days, it seems that anybody right of Bernie Sanders is being called an extremist by the extreme Left / media. It's hard to have a meaningful conversation with somebody wearing double hearing protection and wielding a megaphone on full blast and shouting nonstop nonsense. So what to do? Go to war against them? Peaceably separate? Or let them continue to cause unrest and eventually rule the roost without any recourse of voting them out (Texas is turning ever more blue, and California will never go back to being a red state)?

Tomy - I've read a lot about the fall of the Romans (thus causing the Dark Ages) as well as other fallen civilizations. The parallels I see among them and what I see happening in America / Europe are scary as hell.

[Billionair]

Historically, where we are headed is the Balkans. Any nation that has too many subset of ethnicities doesn't work well together, Iraq (Sunni/Shiite/Kurds). Revolutions occur when the natives and others argue about something. Rome lasted a long time, but the comparisons between the USA and Rome are numerical in nature, especially in its last century. Rome fell to internal strife at its end days, before the armies came to Rome, they played "games," up until the army was at the gates of Rome. Race relations are horrid, and are the catalyst for the natives to drive a wedge between each other. Like it or not, whites/blacks are native to the USA for 200+ years, Indians got wiped out.

I'm gonna speak my honest thoughts here, blacks/whites/hispanics are the majority of the US and they don't want to live near other races. Some mixed cities are fine with living near others, but no one wants to live in the poor areas or violent urban areas between have/have nots. The US Blacks want to have their own area, free of Whites. Whites want to maintain their own nation. Hispanics just want to send money back home, and live and work, but acknowledging that most of their countries are ruled by despots.

All in all, in these precarious times, fringe elements want chaos, and the powers that be can sell hate, use the media to stir up the pot further, and get us all arguing on social media. Most folks don't really give a damn about what is going on and want to be left alone, but Russia/China/Iran are drooling at the thought of us breaking up. I don't agree with Democrats, but I have a lot more in common with them then China, who unleashed a virus to wreck us (at wrecking themselves first). China doesn't let anyone speak out against them, they just kill them. China today evolved out of Mao Ze Dung, who killed over 50M of his own people. Chinas strife was nationalists vs communists, and Shang Kai Shek put down his guns in peace, and Mao absolutely murdered his own folks, the same could be looked at the Russian civil war in 1917.

The end goal is total control, I just don't know who it is pulling the strings. Probably some multicorporation that wants to sell masks, body bags, firearms, ammo, to profit off further tension. Which was primarily how banks came around in the Middle Ages/Crusades, as they profited off war. You can bet, profit is at the bottom of this list somewhere.

As I am a gambling man, (aren't we all in the C/S gambling team?), I would bet that foreign entities don't care who is elected to lead the country, as long as race riots consume police, destroy monuments, and get blacks and whites to kill each other off, so either the UN or someone else invades. Everyone in the world wants our country to fail, and even some Americans, and some people here. Think about what it would be like it indeed failed. The country would become a violent white/black murder area. China would likely invade the California coast and annex it (largest Chinese population), and Russia would likely try to neutralize our leadership in the DC Metro area, and push annexation further into Europe.

That would conclude my balkanization rant, I read a lot of books, and have served time at the border, worked with gangs, and majored in multinational crime syndicates. Enjoy the read.

[Aitrus]

Also, it doesn't explain how the national debt is going to be divided up and transferred under this new system.

I agree - I haven't seen that piece yet either. I assume that under their plan it would be paid out of surplus revenue after the government downsizing, after which taxes are lowered to maintenance levels.

They want to nationalize a bunch of companies (Google, Facebook, insurance companies), nationalize all personal debt, eliminate interest and speculation, end labor unions.

I haven't seen these pieces of the platform yet. Where did you find them?

[bloobs]

Historically, where we are headed is the Balkans. Any nation that has too many subset of ethnicities doesn't work well together, Iraq (Sunni/Shiite/Kurds). Revolutions occur when the natives and others argue about something. Rome lasted a long time, but the comparisons between the USA and Rome are numerical in nature, especially in its last century. Rome fell to internal strife at its end days...Race relations are horrid, and are the catalyst for the natives to drive a wedge between each other.....All in all, in these precarious times, fringe elements want chaos, and the powers that be can sell hate, use the media to stir up the pot further, and get us all arguing on social media. Most folks don't really give a damn about what is going on and want to be left alone, but Russia/China/Iran are drooling at the thought of us breaking up...The end goal is total control, I just don't know who it is pulling the strings. Probably some multicorporation that wants to sell masks, body bags, firearms, ammo, to profit off further tension. Which was primarily how banks came around in the Middle Ages/Crusades, as they profited off war. You can bet, profit is at the bottom of this list somewhere.
....
That would conclude my balkanization rant, I read a lot of books, and have served time at the border, worked with gangs, and majored in multinational crime syndicates. Enjoy the read.

All in all, I am very impressed with your macroscopic analysis and conclusion Billionair. Very well thought out.