A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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"You can never persuade anyone by yelling at them."
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Bubba
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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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Aitrus wrote:Hmm...good thoughts, guys. I appreciate the feedback. A lot of the concerns you share are similar to those that have popped into my mind as well. I was looking for some outside perspectives, and I got them. This site's membership continues to not disappoint - thank you.

I think that their point about reciprocity is well founded - you can't have a functioning society where violations of reciprocity are allowed to go unchecked. Allowing parasitic elements to flourish within a society also pull it down.

michigande - I admit, there is a lot of stuff to cover, and a great deal of it runs contrary to what we've all been taught all our lives. The YouTube channel owner - John Mark - has a lot of other videos explaining most (if not all) of the aspects of this movement. It takes a lot of patience to get through it all and even more to think about it and understand it. It's difficult to parse down into a simple, short video.

stilljammi - Are their arguments racist/sexist/antisemetic, or are they simply stating scientifically validated facts from studies, research, and history? If these facts are true and since the truth hurts, are we immediately disgusted in a reactionary way by these ideas only because we've been lied to and programmed to by society via the education system and reinforced by the media / Hollywood? If we had not been so programmed, would we be able to see the data for what it is and see the points they bring up as valid without immediately dismissing them as distasteful? I hope you can see my confusion on this, and why I'm still undecided on this point - part of the reason I reached out to you guys.

Bubba - I agree that change of some sort needs to happen. However, I think the point they are trying to make is that nobody on the Left is listening to the Right, and the leadership on the Right is capitulating to what the Right's rank-and-file see as unreasonable demands from the Left (or if not capitulating, then simply sitting on their hands). In that environment, compromise of any kind isn't possible. They're saying that "Since our society is proving that Left and Right can't live together, and our leadership is failing us miserably, the only rational and sane thing to do is to separate and agree to live and let live, or else there will be a war that the Left will not win, and there will be casualties on all sides. Thus, we are proposing a safe alternative, and we're the only ones doing so." At least, this is what I'm taking from their messaging.

bloobs - I agree, we've been self-sorting for a long time now. Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we've seen a huge increase in the number of people coming from California, Portland, and Seattle. Also, yes - they do consult with minorities and women quite extensively. I've followed the blogs / twitters / facebook conversations, and while the dominant membership is white men, there are significant numbers of minorities and women as well. Their approach is simple: "Here's our platform and program - prove us wrong through science and data, and we can have a conversation about it. Don't use emotional arguments, platitudes, or logical fallacies such as attacking our character. If you do so, you're only proving the point we're trying to make."

jlozano - Agreed - ignoring the fringe elements of Left and Right are both equally dangerous. Except that these days, it seems that anybody right of Bernie Sanders is being called an extremist by the extreme Left / media. It's hard to have a meaningful conversation with somebody wearing double hearing protection and wielding a megaphone on full blast and shouting nonstop nonsense. So what to do? Go to war against them? Peaceably separate? Or let them continue to cause unrest and eventually rule the roost without any recourse of voting them out (Texas is turning ever more blue, and California will never go back to being a red state)?

Tomy - I've read a lot about the fall of the Romans (thus causing the Dark Ages) as well as other fallen civilizations. The parallels I see among them and what I see happening in America / Europe are scary as hell.
My main concern remains with a divided nation. Yes we are divided right now, but it takes (unfortunately) a tragedy to remind everyone that we're all the same, no matter what race or religion. People have forgotten that fact.

I was so sure that a thing like a pandemic would bring us together, sadly this health malady has been incorporated into politics and people are even further divided.

I don't like the solution of "you go over there and we go over here." I think it'll make it too easy to negate all of the states, especially those that are poor like the "South." It might even be able to pit us against each other in a worse sense.

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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Bubba wrote: I don't like the solution of "you go over there and we go over here." I think it'll make it too easy to negate all of the states, especially those that are poor like the "South." It might even be able to pit us against each other in a worse sense.
Feels like the ingredients of a true civil war!

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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Bubba wrote: My main concern remains with a divided nation. Yes we are divided right now, but it takes (unfortunately) a tragedy to remind everyone that we're all the same, no matter what race or religion. People have forgotten that fact.

I was so sure that a thing like a pandemic would bring us together, sadly this health malady has been incorporated into politics and people are even further divided.
I'm not so sure that we are all the same, Bubba. The same under the law - yes, that's what "created equal" means. But I disagree that we're all created the same in terms of ability, IQ, temperment, etc. There are clear disparities by race, nationality, and more (see below attachments - the worldwide one is from Wikipedia, the other one is from a 10-year nationwide IQ study by Bureau of Labor Statistics).


I don't like the solution of "you go over there and we go over here." I think it'll make it too easy to negate all of the states, especially those that are poor like the "South." It might even be able to pit us against each other in a worse sense.
I agree - that solution isn't ideal (although it does have the upside of allowing each side to live under their own rules and ideals without imposing costs on / ruling over those who disagree), and we'll get to see which ideology works out best). But what's a better solution?
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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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jlozano042 wrote:
Bubba wrote: I don't like the solution of "you go over there and we go over here." I think it'll make it too easy to negate all of the states, especially those that are poor like the "South." It might even be able to pit us against each other in a worse sense.
Feels like the ingredients of a true civil war!
This group of Propertarians I'm keeping an eye on feels the same way; i.e. that civil war has already begun. They don't want war, which is why they're offering their solution:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA5-1iZsE_4

And here are their conclusions about who would win such a war:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJh7Ye1Qvc8&t
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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by jlozano042 »

Aitrus wrote:
Bubba wrote: My main concern remains with a divided nation. Yes we are divided right now, but it takes (unfortunately) a tragedy to remind everyone that we're all the same, no matter what race or religion. People have forgotten that fact.

I was so sure that a thing like a pandemic would bring us together, sadly this health malady has been incorporated into politics and people are even further divided.
I'm not so sure that we are all the same, Bubba. The same under the law - yes, that's what "created equal" means. But I disagree that we're all created the same in terms of ability, IQ, temperment, etc. There are clear disparities by race, nationality, and more (see below attachments - the worldwide one is from Wikipedia, the other one is from a 10-year nationwide IQ study).


I don't like the solution of "you go over there and we go over here." I think it'll make it too easy to negate all of the states, especially those that are poor like the "South." It might even be able to pit us against each other in a worse sense.
I agree - that solution isn't ideal (although it does have the upside of allowing each side to live under their own rules and ideals without imposing costs on / ruling over those who disagree), and we'll get to see which ideology works out best). But what's a better solution?
I don't know Aitrus, this information and graphs don't feel right to me. Something inside tells me that this is wrong (could be because of ignorance). Why are we worried about ability or IQ? Should we be more worried about goodness, doing what is right, and tolerance? Yes some might not have the IQ as a rocket scientist but they could be much smarter in their creativity, or street smart, or making and fostering a very loving and healthy family. The second graph shows Africa as being very intellectually behind but that does not make one bad or great. They might be intellectually behind but they are the people that are most likely to adapt to major changes (social, physical, shtf-scenerio) - possibly?

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by jlozano042 »

Aitrus wrote: And here are their conclusions about who would win such a war:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJh7Ye1Qvc8&t
- From the comments

"AndreKiller1993
1 year ago
One side has millions of guns and military veterans, the other doesn't know which bathroom to use."

Well ... the dude has a point. :lol:

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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jlozano042 wrote: I don't know Aitrus, this information and graphs don't feel right to me. Something inside tells me that this is wrong (could be because of ignorance). Why are we worried about ability or IQ? Should we be more worried about goodness, doing what is right, and tolerance? Yes some might not have the IQ as a rocket scientist but they could be much smarter in their creativity, or street smart, or making and fostering a very loving and healthy family. The second graph shows Africa as being very intellectually behind but that does not make one bad or great. They might be intellectually behind but they are the people that are most likely to adapt to major changes (social, physical, shtf-scenerio) - possibly?
I'm not sure that Africa is more adapt to major changes as you suggest. After all, they're still going through genocides, civil wars, there are currently more slaves in Africa than were in all of the US / colonies before we abolished it, etc. (slavery stats: https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global-sl ... the-world/) It seems to me that rather than adapting and progressing forward as a society, most of Africa has stagnated, and the world is content to let it be that way given the results of past failures to help improve it.

I agree, we should be more worried about goodness, doing what's right, etc. However, a book called Hive Mind: How Your Nation's IQ Matters So Much More Than Your Own by Garrett Jones discusses why IQ matters.

From Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Hive-Mind-Your-N ... 150360067X:
_________________________
"Over the last few decades, economists and psychologists have quietly documented the many ways in which a person's IQ matters. But, research suggests that a nation's IQ matters so much more.

As Garett Jones argues in Hive Mind, modest differences in national IQ can explain most cross-country inequalities. Whereas IQ scores do a moderately good job of predicting individual wages, information processing power, and brain size, a country's average score is a much stronger bellwether of its overall prosperity.

Drawing on an expansive array of research from psychology, economics, management, and political science, Jones argues that intelligence and cognitive skill are significantly more important on a national level than on an individual one because they have "positive spillovers." On average, people who do better on standardized tests are more patient, more cooperative, and have better memories. As a result, these qualities―and others necessary to take on the complexity of a modern economy―become more prevalent in a society as national test scores rise. What's more, when we are surrounded by slightly more patient, informed, and cooperative neighbors we take on these qualities a bit more ourselves. In other words, the worker bees in every nation create a "hive mind" with a power all its own. Once the hive is established, each individual has only a tiny impact on his or her own life."
__________________________
In short, you can't have a first-world nation unless your nation's IQ is above a certain threshold. Part of the Propertarians' argument is that since the US is a first-world country, those without a high enough IQ to compete in it are fearful (maybe not cognitively so, maybe it's sensed unconsciously) that they will be left behind. In reaction to that fear, they demand reparations, economic assistance, and other social actions to make up for it. This doesn't apply to all races - for example Asians are, on the whole, doing better than whites in the US, and so you don't hear them demanding that similar actions be taken on their behalf.

Worse, the Propertarians say, those who face being left behind demand these things from those who had nothing to do with the situation they find themselves in. If these demands are resisted then those who are better off are labeled racist, sexist, etc. for having the temerity of defending themselves from what they see as unreasonable demands. Propertarians say that it's these violations of reciprocity that are the cause of the strife we've been seeing increasingly since the 1960s - and especially in the last couple of decades.

So yes - we should be more worried about doing what's right and about goodness, but what about those whose definition of what's right and good differ from our own? As we've seen by the rioting, a growing number are more than willing to back up their position with violence.
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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by jlozano042 »

Aitrus wrote: I'm not sure that Africa is more adapt to major changes as you suggest. After all, they're still going through genocides, civil wars, there are currently more slaves in Africa than were in all of the US / colonies before we abolished it, etc. (slavery stats: https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global-sl ... the-world/) It seems to me that rather than adapting and progressing forward as a society, most of Africa has stagnated, and the world is content to let it be that way given the results of past failures to help improve it.

...

So yes - we should be more worried about doing what's right and about goodness, but what about those whose definition of what's right and good differ from our own? As we've seen by the rioting, a growing number are more than willing to back up their position with violence.
That makes sense - I need to think more about this. I sincerely appreciate your response to my comments.

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

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Thank you for being open minded about it and willing to help me think through it instead of being purely reactionary. I know that this kind of subject can be touchy, and a great many people might tend to jump to a conclusion without hearing any of the data.
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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by crondanet5 »

I bet the FBI have infiltrated it.

One of the things I'd like to know is do they own a lot of property? If not, will they confiscate properties, divvy them up, then watch the leaders of the movement regain control of the properties? I don't see us proletariat winning if they takeover Oklahoma.

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by Bubba »

Aitrus wrote:
Bubba wrote: My main concern remains with a divided nation. Yes we are divided right now, but it takes (unfortunately) a tragedy to remind everyone that we're all the same, no matter what race or religion. People have forgotten that fact.

I was so sure that a thing like a pandemic would bring us together, sadly this health malady has been incorporated into politics and people are even further divided.
I'm not so sure that we are all the same, Bubba. The same under the law - yes, that's what "created equal" means. But I disagree that we're all created the same in terms of ability, IQ, temperment, etc. There are clear disparities by race, nationality, and more (see below attachments - the worldwide one is from Wikipedia, the other one is from a 10-year nationwide IQ study by Bureau of Labor Statistics).


I don't like the solution of "you go over there and we go over here." I think it'll make it too easy to negate all of the states, especially those that are poor like the "South." It might even be able to pit us against each other in a worse sense.
I agree - that solution isn't ideal (although it does have the upside of allowing each side to live under their own rules and ideals without imposing costs on / ruling over those who disagree), and we'll get to see which ideology works out best). But what's a better solution?
When our forefathers landed at Normandy, they were all the same to the outside world. That's my point. If you grab a group of Americans and steal their passports, they're all American. Together we are strong.

I think something could be said about making states more independent, but then you would have major issues with fiscal transfers and less community. America works well because our market is large, language is the same and culture similar. Lose that and you lose America.

I think this group sounds like the ultimate version of what I said is wrong in America. People just want what they like, no deliberation or compromise.

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by bloobs »

Aitrus
IQ by itself is not the primary determining factor of a nation's success or need to be separated--so that alone isn't convincing evidence of whatever you're trying to prove here.

There are MANY other factors that play into that equation. Believing so, even based on an analysis of certain facts, is practicing selective bias (cherry picking)--because it discounts other factors. The real answer is not so simply explained by one attribute like IQ.

BTW, along with IQ, neither are (by itself) race, gender/sexual orientation, and birthplace/nationality (factors which one cannot control) and religion, political affiliation (factors which one CAN control/influence) determining factors in a person's or a societal groups behaviors or tendencies.

My point is thus: it is the mix of several factors that define who we are individually, or who we are/should be collectively as a nation or in this case a distinct state.

For instance: California is the most productive US state (and most countries!) in terms of per capital GDP. There is extreme diversity in California. There are a few high IQ guys there but make no mistake about it, there are plenty of really low IQ people who live there of all races and creeds and beliefs and all points in between. They all somehow contribute to its productivity and success. How could they do this with so much differences? It's complicated (e.g. not simple).

So if you attempt to split up Cali from the rest of the Union based on what you believe is a line in the sand based on its perceived creed, race, religion, political leanings, morality, differences from wherever else--wouldn't that (in real life) cause the very revolution your movement is supposed to prevent?

Besides, isn't your movement essentially espousing the same principles and concepts as what the nazis promoted in 1930's Germany with their racial categorization policy based on their "untermenschen" arguments? That we are so different not just horizontally but "vertically" as well--that it requires that we be split up geographically to promote the peace (albeit the untermenschen or the "sub-humans" do not have a say in where they are sent to).

Since we all know where that movement ended up in 1945, perhaps we should all be wary of what we're dealing with here.
Last edited by bloobs on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by bosco7 »

Aitrus, most of that iq data is debunked nonsense. Intelligence is not guided but the color of ones skin. Two, you all have a very dark view of the future. Diversity and a diverse environment makes for a much stronger culture and populace. Stratifying people by race, religion, political leanings will always weaken the progress of that group. Yes, theres turmoil in this country, theres always been turmoil, the tempest creates resiliency.

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Re: A movement that I've been keeping an eye on...

Post by userque »

Interesting discussion. I'm impressed and encouraged by some of the responses.

Before I debate any particular points (if ... I debate any particular point), I just want to add:

The first part of any solution, to any problem, is to first: identify the problem.

If we don't see the actual problem, as the actual problem (i.e. denial); then this divided great empire will certainly, and soon, fall.

I'll just leave these right here:

Image
Image

The average age of an empire? A mere 250 years
https://www.times-standard.com/2017/06/ ... 0in%202026.

"Americans may not think of themselves as an “empire,” but much of the world does. The average age of empires, according to a specialist on the subject, the late Sir John Bagot Glubb, is 250 years. After that, empires always die, often slowly but overwhelmingly from overreaching in the search for power.

The America of 1776 will reach its 250th year in 2026. ..."
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